Re: Really like this quote – dominance

[Dree]

[quote author=kizkiznobite link=topic=12580.msg243340#msg243340 date=1222850780]
there are many studies recorded…mech, schenkel for example…the bbc did a brill series on african dogs showing exactly what i described when a female gave birth and the pack manager took the pups and excluded the biological mother from the den… african dogs live and hunt in packs and yes males assist in raising the pups and many remain with their pack for life but the females leave their birth pack upon maturing to join/create a pack with no or only much lower ranking females and usually only one female breeds unless…as i said she is unable to for what ever reason….
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You said in your post:-mum then has a choice…she accepts that or she is excluded or she is killed…as maternal intincts are strong the normal average is that she is killed…  Are you saying that the programmed showed a bitch being killed?  Because being excluded is very different from being killed….and excluded for how long?  In “Innocent Killers” the alpha female did actually exclude the lower ranking female from her own pups for some time…we are talking some hours..but then let her into the den again.  Again….can I ask where you get the information from that females are actually killed by others in the pack, as I have never, ever heard of this, either in wild dogs or in wolves.

I did not say that males (or females) stay with the pack for life.  With wolves, youngsters leave the pack around two years of age in order to pair up with another wolf, and form their own pack.  In a wolf pack, the pack consists of the mating pair and their offspring. 

I find this interesting….from this site:-
http://fwcb.cfans.umn.edu/courses/fw8576/SocialDynMech_1999.pdf
“Contrary to this view, I propose that all young wolves are potential breeders and that when they do breed they automatically become alphas (Mech 1970). Even in captive packs, individuals gain or lose alpha status (Zimen 1976), so individual wolves do not have an inherent permanent social status..”

[quote author=kizkiznobite link=topic=12580.msg243340#msg243340 date=1222850780]
Jayne Goodall’s video ..dogs of africa..made in 1973… also documents the behaviour of the ranking female re pups from a lower status female
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Can’t remember ever seeing the video, but if it reflects her book, then the alpha female excluded the actual mother for some time from her own pups, but then allowed her back into the den…as said above.  The lower ranking female was never hurt by the higher ranking female.

[quote author=kizkiznobite link=topic=12580.msg243340#msg243340 date=1222850780]
and please dree…actually read what posts say eh?  did i say the female manager went hunting when there are pups or she not fit….?  ::)
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I did read the post.  No, you didn’t….and I didn’t say you did.  🙂 

[quote author=kizkiznobite link=topic=12580.msg243340#msg243340 date=1222850780]
what i said was she ‘set’s’ them for the hunt and may plan the hunt depending on her level of stamina…as in if she is able to leave the den she will go and hunt with her mate…..
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And again I ask for confirmation of this.  Since both wolves and dogs travel some distance before they even come across a herd, there is no way that any female which is staying behind at the den can instigate a hunt, never mind plan the hunt which is what you said.  How does any dog “plan” a hunt?  The picking up of a herd (or a single kill), the instigation of the chase, which dogs take up which running position, etc. are incredibly subtle signals, and I have yet to read of a female being the “hunt leader”.

[quote author=kizkiznobite link=topic=12580.msg243340#msg243340 date=1222850780]
and as far as i recall ‘innocent killers’ was predominantly about the spotted hyena was it not  :-\….with parts re i think jackals and a touch on african dogs…unless i am getting mixed up with some of her other work…
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“Innocent Killers” covered the Wild Dogs, the hyena and the jackal equally.

Just as a PS.  This site is great re: “dominance” and the wolf.
http://fwcb.cfans.umn.edu/courses/fw8576/SocialDynMech_1999.pdf
“The only consistent demonstration of rank in natural packs is the animals’ postures during social interaction.  Dominant wolves assume the classic canid standing posture with tail up at least horizontally, and subordinate or submissive individuals lower themselves and “cringe” (Darwin
1877). In fact, submission itself may be as important as dominance in terms of promoting friendly relations or reducing social distance.”