Bad relationship

[Diesel73]

quote :

i think my dog likes me .
i dont really know

:what: ….. You are joking, right?

[Dree]

[quote author=kizkiznobite link=topic=12456.msg241505#msg241505 date=1221785286]
as i said in my posts…of course my dogs are cued to a down… visual or verbal or whistle..they are also cued to a stop but that does not mean drop down…it just means stop as i am going to tell you to do something else…they are also …eventually …cued to series and chains that can involve both…if i cue stop i dont want an automatic down…just like suz said with honey…they are gunners..i dont want them to drop on a stop cue…i want them to drop on a down cue…as i said i might want them to stop and go left or right
[/quote]

Izzie, we can confuse people left, right and centre with cues, etc.  If we teach basic obedience with positive rewards, I honestly believe that we don’t have to talk gobbledegook.  Yes, you can teach a stop.  No problem with that.  I’ve just found in my experience that a down *can* be (not always, but a lot) more reliable when a dog is running to/from/whatever.

[quote author=kizkiznobite link=topic=12456.msg241505#msg241505 date=1221785286]
and it is not the down that is the aversive is it?…it is putting dog on leash…negative punishment … reducing behaviour by taking away that ‘something good’… a dog will work to avoid it getting taken away ….recall a dog and put on leash and leave park everytime during the training process then recall will break down….same principle
[/quote]

The two examples you have given are two opposite extremes.  Of course, putting the dog on the lead is “aversive” in that it will extinguish the original behaviour.  So for the recall, you call the dog, put it on the lead, and immediately let it off again.  You do this umpteen times during the walk, so that the dog associates being put on the lead with being let off again.  (This is very basic reinforcement training of the recall.)  But the original problem was a dog running off, and *that* behaviour you *do* want to extinguish.

[quote author=kizkiznobite link=topic=12456.msg241505#msg241505 date=1221785286]
and the science behind the learning folks..
classical conditioning…

It is the process that is defined when a person or animal comes to associate a certain object, sense or state; known as the Unconditioned Stimulus with a painful or pleasant experience, known as the Unconditioned Response which causes the stimulus to become physiologically reactive, known as the Conditioned Stimulus .. thus creating a particular response whenever the stimulus is offered or present, known as the Conditioned Response…standard behaviourist jargon and yep we use shorthand  🙂
[/quote]

We could talk about Classical Conditioning, Positive Reinforcement, Operant Conditioning, etc., etc. until we are blue in the face…..I prefer not to when I am training someone.  I don’t like to confuse them.  I certainly don’t like using shorthand…..I personally think it’s rude when others don’t know the shorthand….jmho.  I know some superb trainers in this country, and they have never, ever mentioned Positive Reinforcement, etc., despite using it long before clicker training became the “in” thing here.

[Dree]

[quote author=cjane link=topic=12456.msg241526#msg241526 date=1221823326]
Still here and sticking with this thread, lots of interesting stuff being discussed.

I convinced myself that a ‘back to basics’ effort was required at the start of this year. I put together a plan of the behaviours I would work on and set myself some targets. We practiced every morning but it didn’t seem to any effect on his problems.  In June we saw the behaviourist who told us the problem was our relationship and advised the bonding thing. I’m not convinced this was made any difference either.  She said we needed regular sessions but due to other commitments she could not help further.

So, I’m back to thinking that we should return to our ‘back to basics’ effort, and what Dree has said backs this up.  I am aware that some behaviours will never be 100%, as Kiz told me, we’ve had too many failures, like recall, but if I can get a ‘work around’ or find another way to manage a situation, then so be it. 

CJ
[/quote]

I so wish you lived near me, CJ!  I would love to see this boy, and see what is going on.  I suspect that you are trying for a behaviour in a problem area, when you haven’t strengthened the behaviour enough at home, etc.  (I suspect this, but obviously I really don’t know.)  Wishing you all the best!  :yes: 

[kizkiznobite]

We could talk about Classical Conditioning, Positive Reinforcement, Operant Conditioning, etc., etc. until we are blue in the face…..I prefer not to when I am training someone.  I don’t like to confuse them.  I certainly don’t like using shorthand…..I personally think it’s rude when others don’t know the shorthand….jmho.  I know some superb trainers in this country, and they have never, ever mentioned Positive Reinforcement, etc., despite using it long before clicker training became the “in” thing here.

i strongly disagree sorry….i wouldnt patronise my clients by assuming they didnt want to know because it is confusing  :-\ i find that they do actually want to know the science behind the learning that they and their dogs are undertaking and typically, as in my experience, CJ for example clearly does wish to learn and to debate such ….as is apparent from the thread on operant conditioning that CJ began last week….

as for the shorthand i apologise…I assumed you would understand it as it is the standard use of abv. when writing up classical conditioning examples…i do not use it with clients without it being explained fully with written examples first  🙂

and i have being talking about operant conditioning for about 30 years….many many years before i discovered and was taught how to use a clicker  🙂

by the way…the quote …..was my post not Izzies  🙂

[Anonymous]

quote :

i strongly disagree sorry….i wouldnt patronise my clients by assuming they didnt want to know because it is confusing  Undecided i find that they do actually want to know the science behind the learning that they and their dogs are undertaking and typically, as in my experience, CJ for example clearly does wish to learn and to debate such ….as is apparent from the thread on operant conditioning that CJ began last week….

as for the shorthand i apologise…I assumed you would understand it as it is the standard use of abv. when writing up classical conditioning examples…i do not use it with clients without it being explained fully with written examples first  Smiley

and i have being talking about operant conditioning for about 30 years….many many years before i discovered and was taught how to use a clicker  Smiley

by the way…the quote …..was my post not Izzies  Smiley

Hi,

Classical and Operant conditioning as types of learning come from the behaviourism school of psychology and apply to the different modes in which dogs learn.  The standard abbreviations are used across psychology as a discipline and also where psychology meets other disciplines.  These learning models were in use and practiced (along with their terminology) years before the clicker was added as a marker.  This not only applies to todays more popular “positive” type dog training but also to the more traditional methods.  The learning models are the same for clicker training popular today as they are for the previously popular twatting dog with newspaper.  All that has changed is the human practice of harnessing positive techniques and leaving behind the no longer needed negative ones.

Bev’s ability to promote the best experience and benefits possible for the client and dog(s) is second to none, imho. 

I hope they dont mind me saying but CJ and Tai have tried a number of different approaches and if one or both are possibly confused its no real suprise 😉  Also, she has in the past allowed him to practice behaviours that she doesnt want because of the logistics of living where she does (CJ – can you get to toilet place now with him walking nice or does he still pull?).  Not deliberately “on purpose” obviously but out of some nessessity because he needs to toilet !!

Claire.

[wags]

i still think my sugestion is the best  😉

[kizkiznobite]

am begining to agree with you wags  ;D what’s your tipple…am off to the bar…. :-*

[xtine]

[quote author=Mark. link=topic=12456.msg241410#msg241410 date=1221767522]
Gawd, i am soooo out of my depth here. LOL There is so much info on this thread i can’t take it all in. I haven’t read it all through just yet but i’m going to because it’s really gripping. I just wish i understood you all.  :surprise: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
[/quote]

me too.. am having a coffee break.. wish i still smoked  😀

[wags]

[quote author=kizkiznobite link=topic=12456.msg242970#msg242970 date=1222680016]
am begining to agree with you wags  ;D what’s your tipple…am off to the bar…. :-*
[/quote]

totally lady like and either a pint or a vodka and coke

[kizkiznobite]

so..thats a pint of vodka and a lager with a coke top then…ok coming up…. 😀

[wags]

mmmmm lovelly sounds good to me

[Kerry_and_Beau]

argh where did my long post go???????????  :suspious:

[kizkiznobite]

keep pressing the gree back icon

[Kerry_and_Beau]

that didn’t work  ::) never mind i’ll re write it at some point…but it won’t be the same  :nono:  :canadian:

[kizkiznobite]

go into your drop down in the google bar…it will still be there…and the green icon does work you have to keep pressing and go beyond the web page has expired stuff..i do it all the time  😀

[Author]

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