cause and effect – conscious choice or not…

[Diesel73]

[quote author=kizkiznobite link=topic=11567.msg219081#msg219081 date=1212042126]
ok…so if you are thinking that it was a deliberate act….

then presumably you would agree that a dog is aware of the future and does not just live in the present ?
;D

[/quote]Hmmm, good one.
I think they can, but only as far as very near future.
Like, i sit on sofa, sunshine says; ‘it’s rainng’. Boys not waiting by the door to go out at normal hours. They know i wait until the rain is less. When stops raining or rain not so bad no more is when they wake up. So i think they are able to antisepate what is going to happen. In the very near future hahaha.

[kizkiznobite]

but if you think he planned it then he had an understanding of the future as a concept …no?  ;D

[Diesel73]

[quote author=kizkiznobite link=topic=11567.msg219148#msg219148 date=1212078184]
but if you think he planned it then he had an understanding of the future as a concept …no?  ;D
[/quote]
Oesche  ::) ….. Yes and no. Yes for understanding of the future as in ‘what can be in it to gain for me very soon’, and no, as in ‘perhaps if i keep bugging you than one day you’ll give in’. I don’t think they can plan thàt far.
I think they got ability to plan for their own selfish future today. I am hungry today, what could i get. I feel fiesty today, how can i release that energy and soon. I am Ironman, how will i use my superpowers today hahaha  😀 . Like that. Understand what i mean? 

[Anonymous]

or …. could it be perhaps that he’s conditioned to jump in the chair when dad gets out of it ? 

like “ooh dads up” i’ll claim that chair while he’s gone 🙂  william can “forget” about needing the loo even with the slightest of distractions 🙂

[Diesel73]

[quote author=rooooooooby link=topic=11567.msg219154#msg219154 date=1212079257]
or …. could it be perhaps that he’s conditioned to jump in the chair when dad gets out of it ? 

like “ooh dads up” i’ll claim that chair while he’s gone 🙂  william can “forget” about needing the loo even with the slightest of distractions 🙂
[/quote]
Ok, can follow that thinkingway, but…. if 2 dog are involved, than the second one has to be able to plan something in order to make dog nr1 get out of the sofa àfter dog nr1 already nicked it from his master. Is that not the planning?

Perhaps it’s a 2 street thing. 1= oppertunity raises and take it, and 2=Hmm, i want it, how can i make it happen?
What you think?

[kizkiznobite]

am enjoying this – like making folk think  ;D

[Diesel73]

[quote author=kizkiznobite link=topic=11567.msg219177#msg219177 date=1212081811]
am enjoying this – like making folk think  ;D
[/quote]
Thought you would  ::) . But uhm… you got little -soon to be huge- brainteaser of yourself to make you rethink about… just about everything you know  ;D  and his name starts with a C….  >:D . I am SO enjoying THAT hahaha  :-* .

[kizkiznobite]

yeah i have noticed … you seen the pics with him and red  ::) got my work cut out …i know  ::)

[Gracie]

re future concept – i think not, as they have no concept of past if not marked / rewarded / punished within 3 secs.

but then i was thinking, that they do in some capacity as you teach a sit they remeber, falkor rememberes bees are scary bad, but is it only if they have assocised a reward punishement that they remember?

so i think that it was opportunist and then the the laughing etc of the men at the dog jump in the chair made him happpy coz the reinforcing him beng there!?

you will remember to tell us the answer wont you eventually  😛

[kizkiznobite]

will post a poll once the discussion stops …

the concept of future is hard one is it not? – re-enforcment – reward for a behaviour but…when falkor raids the fridge for example – is that solely a learnt behaviour due to success or is he aware because he also learnt hunger – that even though he been fed he might not be tomorrow in the tomorrow sense?

and what about bone burying…do they remember that yesterday the buried a bone, check it still there today but it for tomorrow?

when they see the bags packed for holidays including the toys they only get on the beach – are they aware that in the future they will be on the beach?

[Diesel73]

quote :

and what about bone burying…do they remember that yesterday the buried a bone, check it still there today but it for tomorrow?

I do not think they see ‘tomorrow’ as the actual tomorrow. I think they see time like a child of 3 years old. They have no sence of real time yet. They can not read the clock, but they do know when it is day or night. Tell a three year old ‘next week’ and they have no real clue of when that is, but they do know it is not ‘today’.
I think they got;
‘past’ -already happend, but even this morning is past-,
‘today’ -right know, this very moment-,
‘tomorrow’ -is going to come but not right now. When it is going to come is unknown. Might never even come at all.

quote :

and what about bone burying…do they remember that yesterday the buried a bone, check it still there today but it for tomorrow?

Same thing here. I think they know they burried it ‘in the past’, already happend, it is done, might take a look if it is still there now, ‘today’, but dig it up for ‘tomorrow’, but that might mean next week or when ever he wants it.

quote :

when they see the bags packed for holidays including the toys they only get on the beach – are they aware that in the future they will be on the beach?

Perhaps not the beach, but they deffinetely know something fun is coming and they are going with us.
Bring the samsonite from the attic to my room and Wodan camps in it. Is moody and don’t want to leave the suitcase. It means he not coming. Bring the samsonite ànd the weekendsamsonite from the attic and Wodan camping in the car. He happy and want to leave. It means he coming. So boys know when we are going to leave ‘oneday’ without them. But they also know when they coming ànd know it is going to be fun.
When we just leave or a few hours or a day, they not this way. So they do have some knowledge of when we come home same day or leave for longer. But i don’t think he understand the difference between 3 days or 20.

[Gracie]

yes but its reinforcement that makes them remember – link it to the!? so the reinforcement enjoyment of the beach means they connect that, its not that they have a concpet of the future as such…. 
bone reinforcement of ‘their’ left for later makes them remember

dogs are scavengers, so falkor learnt that food needs to be eaten when there as it might not be tomorrow, but gracie opportunists as far as she knows food will always be there but would still counter surf.

time re diesel said, now dogs cant tel the time  :-\ but come 6pm if Gracie hasnt been fed she stands infront of the tv and generallly barks and pesters till we feed her, she knows it dinner time. and i dont think it inadvertant cues, as i start work at all diff times of the day (eve) and OH used to finish at different times

interesting stuff

[SuzAndTheDiva]

I wonder them remembering the past, I posted somehwere about Honey having an accident in the house as she was poorly, no one had noticed yet when I came home she greeted me oddly, in the fact she was doing the sorry sorry mum sorry I been bad, I was confused until I went into my room (she greeted me in the garden) and saw what had happened. So she knew right- i know we say dogs dont so we cant punish them and I agree BUT I came straight outside to see her I didnt know until AFTER I saw her what shed done so nothing in MY body language to make her think she needed to be so appeasing…………….. ???

And also have never told her off for poohing in the house, it only happened once before as again she couldnt make it out in time when poorly, so she obviously knew in some way it was wrong to go inside but was no telling off in the past to make her think shed been THAT bad  ???

[Gracie]

but what about from when she was being puppy trained? maybe she was punished then??

[SuzAndTheDiva]

ohhh good point Gracie never thought about that, well she was housetrained to some degree when i got her – 2 nights/days of taking her out etc when needed like a puppy she was clean – we had only half a dozen accidents if that. But obviously cant say what her house training was like when they had her, so it possible she been real told of for going inside – infact she will only go in the garden too if absolutely necessary prefering to wait for a walk…..

[Author]

Posts