cause and effect – conscious choice or not…

[GSPmad]

you’re right i am right and i am too tired to think about that one now.  😀

[Diesel73]

quote :

if we accept that the dog planned it then the dog had to have a ‘future’ concept of some kind – even if it was just the immediate next few minutes of ‘future’ ..his ‘future’ of being able to work out how to get in the chair in the ‘future’ – if you with me

I think they can do this. Diesel started a while ago with hiding his most beloved toys in my bathtob. Wodan rarely goes there during the day, only goes there if someone is having a bath at night. He drops in it what he covets most. My Tarco did this too. Same place, also his’ -at the time- most beloved possesions. Wodan always stole Tarco’s most beloved toys, but never thought of looking in the bathtob. Wodan always steals Diesel’s most beloved toy too. Yet, Diesel never saw this from Tarco. Diesel even never knew Tarco. So i do think they have some limited sence of planning things. Dogs can afford being completely selfish. It’s all about mememememe.

[kizkiznobite]

ahhhh but…is that not learnt behaviour  😉

[Diesel73]

[quote author=kizkiznobite link=topic=11567.msg221285#msg221285 date=1212860147]
ahhhh but…is that not learnt behaviour  😉
[/quote]
No, it is something he tought himself. I think, since i don’t think this is something their mam tought them.
Don’t know how, but like; hide it there, other won’t find it. I can get it when i want. At the weirdest times he goes to tub to collect one of his toys. So he is able to plan to put it there, somehow thinking Wodan won’t look there, and memory to collect it later when he wants it back again.
I like it, want to keep it to myself, hide it, collect it when i want it again. Selfish i don’t want to share strategic planning.

Tarco started doing that àfter i thought him how to open doors. Next thing we knew he opened bathroom door and started stuffing his things in the tub.
Diesel never knew Tarco nor ever saw this happen since Wodan never done this.
Why the tub we have no clue. But it is the one place in the house wodan visits rarely. If so only when someone is in the tub soaking.

I think is sort, yet in a nother way, just like; i want sofa, you in it, how can i remove you and have it to myself. Again selfish strategic planning. It still I want i want i want.

[GSPmad]

[quote author=kizkiznobite link=topic=11567.msg221168#msg221168 date=1212806813]
the scenario with the dog chair and door though … ;D

if we accept that the dog planned it then the dog had to have a ‘future’ concept of some kind – even if it was just the immediate next few minutes of ‘future’ ..his ‘future’ of being able to work out how to get in the chair in the ‘future’ – if you with me

your right 4am in morning is not the time for complicated concepts  ;D
[/quote]

Right…opening next bottle of lager and not sure what i’m writing yet but know i am going to argue  😀

errrrr….

depends how you see ‘future’ i suppose. to me that is no more ‘future’ than getting excited when food bowls picked up to be filled or shoes going on for walk…. learned behaviour, repeatable, if i do x then y happens…. or if x happens that means y is going to happen… see i don’t count something involving planning but where something will be immediate – ie within few minutes – as ‘future’ – so depends on definition i suppose.  :-\

am confusing myself now….  ::)

[Diesel73]

quote :

am confusing myself now…. 

You need a stronger drink  😉 .

quote :

depends how you see ‘future’ i suppose. to me that is no more ‘future’ than getting excited when food bowls picked up to be filled or shoes going on for walk…. learned behaviour, repeatable, if i do x then y happens…. or if x happens that means y is going to happen… see i don’t count something involving planning but where something will be immediate

Ok, but those are 2 different roads that lead to something. See, when you pick up foodbowl, you take action. Dog going nuts knowing he going to get fed is a reaction.
However when dog walks to the door to get you out of sofa, hé took the first action and you give a reaction.
Is a difference, no?

[GSPmad]

[quote author=Diesel73 link=topic=11567.msg221452#msg221452 date=1212920420]

quote :

am confusing myself now…. 

You need a stronger drink  😉 .

quote :

depends how you see ‘future’ i suppose. to me that is no more ‘future’ than getting excited when food bowls picked up to be filled or shoes going on for walk…. learned behaviour, repeatable, if i do x then y happens…. or if x happens that means y is going to happen… see i don’t count something involving planning but where something will be immediate

Ok, but those are 2 different roads that lead to something. See, when you pick up foodbowl, you take action. Dog going nuts knowing he going to get fed is a reaction.
However when dog walks to the door to get you out of sofa, hé took the first action and you give a reaction.
Is a difference, no?
[/quote]

needed a while to get brain in gear again.  ;D

alright – dog knows he can perform an action which will cause a reaction enabling him to perform another action. Still doesn’t mean he has a concept of the future per se – future is a human concept (like “bad” behaviour and “good” behaviour”). Make sense?  🙂

[Diesel73]

quote :

Still doesn’t mean he has a concept of the future per se – future is a human concept (like “bad” behaviour and “good” behaviour”). Make sense? 

Yes and no hahaha.
Understand what you are saying, but why is it only a human concept? ==>

quote :

dog knows he can perform an action which will cause a reaction enabling him to perform another action. Still doesn’t mean he has a concept of the future per se

Dog has got to have some limited knowledge of future to know that if he does A, than B is coming.
I think they do because for example fish do not.
Fish;
I tap the glass each time befor i feed them from the moment i got my fishtank. Now, i tap glass, fish swim to the surface, knowing they going to be fed. BUT…. it’s a reaction to my action. Every time i am close to the fishtank they don’t swim to the surface because they think food might be coming. So they take no action first in order to obtain something in the future (next few seconds)
Dogs; They will try something in order that they might optain something. That is in futuretence. Right?

[GSPmad]

[quote author=Diesel73 link=topic=11567.msg222792#msg222792 date=1213294292]
Understand what you are saying, but why is it only a human concept? ==>

quote :

dog knows he can perform an action which will cause a reaction enabling him to perform another action. Still doesn’t mean he has a concept of the future per se

Dog has got to have some limited knowledge of future to know that if he does A, than B is coming.
I think they do because for example fish do not.
Dogs; They will try something in order that they might optain something. That is in futuretence. Right?

[/quote]

because it is only humans that try to classify and box and name things – dogs just get on with it.  ;D

doing A to obtain B is to me immediate rather than future.

if dog thought – i won’t roll in this fox poo because then i will have to have a bath when i get home – THAT would be a future concept.  🙂

[SuzAndTheDiva]

Sorry this doesnt have much to do with the topic – but smart dog thinking thrings throughgrooming little westie, he got a fascination with the hair its funny, but he will eat it if he can get it, so i push it to end of the table as im working, then put it in a rubbish bag, but hes worked out if he stretches his front paws out he can drag some hair twoards him, and then lean down just enough to lick the hair up  >:D if he cant quite reach with his tongue he stands there with his foot on the hair so no one takes it  😀

[GSPmad]

i think that was duibh’s theory with his tablet last night – he put his paw right on top of it after spitting it out – and i think his intention was to hide it and prevent me giving it to him.  >:D

[Diesel73]

[quote author=GSPmad link=topic=11567.msg222834#msg222834 date=1213298539]
i think that was duibh’s theory with his tablet last night – he put his paw right on top of it after spitting it out – and i think his intention was to hide it and prevent me giving it to him.  >:D
[/quote]
Ba-a-ah…. that’s planning. Right? Because he knows you are going to shove it down him again…. if you find it ont the floor…… in the next few secs…. in the ‘future’…… right?  🙂 or wrong?  >:D

quote :

doing A to obtain B is to me immediate rather than future.

if dog thought – i won’t roll in this fox poo because then i will have to have a bath when i get home – THAT would be a future concept. 

For us adults yes, but not even for small children. A 2-3 or even 4 year old will not make himself not dirty in the garden because he don’t want to take a bath in an hour or 6. That might be ‘our’ future, but in his terms future is withing next 5 minutes. For us putting him in a bathtob when we made the bathroom ready for a very dirty child is immediate, but for him it is future. Cause while we pull shampoo and towels out of the closet and run a bath, he back to playing outside already forgotten about it. When we go to collect he didn’t want to take a bath 5 min ago and don’t want to take one now. But usually they promiss to take a bath ‘tomorrow’. Just because that means ‘not now’, and seems far faaaar away hahaha.  😀

Got a feeling GSP is close to throwing things at my head bwahahaha  😀 . Just kidding  😉 .

[kizkiznobite]

this is good…keep it going – i am enjoying this  ;D

[GSPmad]

[quote author=Diesel73 link=topic=11567.msg222939#msg222939 date=1213303316]
[quote author=GSPmad link=topic=11567.msg222834#msg222834 date=1213298539]
i think that was duibh’s theory with his tablet last night – he put his paw right on top of it after spitting it out – and i think his intention was to hide it and prevent me giving it to him.  >:D
[/quote]
Ba-a-ah…. that’s planning. Right? Because he knows you are going to shove it down him again…. if you find it ont the floor…… in the next few secs…. in the ‘future’…… right?  🙂 or wrong?  >:D

quote :

doing A to obtain B is to me immediate rather than future.

if dog thought – i won’t roll in this fox poo because then i will have to have a bath when i get home – THAT would be a future concept. 

For us adults yes, but not even for small children. A 2-3 or even 4 year old will not make himself not dirty in the garden because he don’t want to take a bath in an hour or 6. That might be ‘our’ future, but in his terms future is withing next 5 minutes. For us putting him in a bathtob when we made the bathroom ready for a very dirty child is immediate, but for him it is future. Cause while we pull shampoo and towels out of the closet and run a bath, he back to playing outside already forgotten about it. When we go to collect he didn’t want to take a bath 5 min ago and don’t want to take one now. But usually they promiss to take a bath ‘tomorrow’. Just because that means ‘not now’, and seems far faaaar away hahaha.  😀

Got a feeling GSP is close to throwing things at my head bwahahaha  😀 . Just kidding  😉 .

[/quote]

right – too tired for this at moment – only got 5hrs sleep last night and i need at least 8 – but going to argue anyway.  >:D  ;D

when i was a small child of 2 or 3 or 4 i knew perfectly well that getting all muddy meant i was going to get a bath – and a spot of yelling – like the time i fell head first in the mud in the park – cousin thought it was hilarious – mater, grandmater et al did NOT.  >:D ditto time i fell head first in canal… (and time i fell out of train – not that i got muddy then – i just needed tying up  😀 ).

duih standing on tablet – immediate planning – hide it – therefore immediate – not future. he not worked out to pretend he’s swallowed it then go and spit it in the bin when i’m not looking – now THAT would be planning. at least i don’t think he has.  :-\ will have to start checking the bin.

so i still say no future concept per se.  ;D

[kerrie and stan]

this threads great ;D ok heres another senario (sp)

owner leaves house and comes back in 4 minuets later to find some of the food on the counter in the kitchen gone and dog now laid on sofa. so did the dog hear the key go into the lock then head for the sofa, which surly would indicate ‘future’ thought or did the dog eat some and leave the rest (not likely 😀 ) possibly to eat later again indicating ‘future’ thought.

what are your views ;D ;D

[Author]

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