cause and effect – conscious choice or not…

[Diesel73]

[quote author=kerrie and stan link=topic=11567.msg224497#msg224497 date=1213705325]
this threads great ;D ok heres another senario (sp)

owner leaves house and comes back in 4 minuets later to find some of the food on the counter in the kitchen gone and dog now laid on sofa. so did the dog hear the key go into the lock then head for the sofa, which surly would indicate ‘future’ thought or did the dog eat some and leave the rest (not likely 😀 ) possibly to eat later again indicating ‘future’ thought.

what are your views ;D ;D
[/quote]
Well i’m sure of that.That dog knows, sh.t get out of here and head for sofa as if 7 dwarfs stole the food cause trouble for me is comming. Diesel done something in the house he not suppost to, than he will say hihi very quick and sneeeeeeeak out of the livingroom. Some food still on table? Oh yeah, mister got interupted whillst nicking some. But he’ll make damne sure he nowhere near the table incase whe should find out our eatable stuff went ‘missing’.
I don’t think dogs think in future tence when it comes to food. It’s either now or not at all.

Wodan…. difficult one for this example  ::) ………. He would sooner feel up the vacumcleaner than stealing food  😛 . Can leave food on the floor with chocolate on it, he won’t eat it unless i say he can  :-\ . Not even if i leave food on the coffee table and go to bed with him sleeping on the sofa all night. He won’t touch it. But little bro………..  >:D

[Mudgie]

i dont believe (my opinion) that dogs have a sense of time (future) they are in the here and now.  I understand and accept the whole rationale of conditioned responses but if you leave a dog for an hour or two hours I dont think they understand the concept of time as in here and now but for a “future” date – that I dont know. 

If this scenario orginally has been the first experience then I am unsure as to whether it is premeditated.  I know that Nacho (and other dogs) learn from cues – i.e. driving a certain way means beach or park or visiting someone  😉  So does the dog know that whining at door makes the master leave chair to let him out so “works out” if I whine at door I get my chair back – yes I believe this is true.  He associates whine at door not only with toilet request but with master leaving chair. 

I dont understand the whole concept of a dog leaving any food if it is accessible to them.  ;D  Not in my experience – remember first and foremost they are scavengers  ;D

[Mudgie]

fantastic post Bev wish I had joined it earlier – been a while since we had something this thought provoking  ;D  thanks been brain dead a while now

[Diesel73]

Didn’t respond to this cause you anoying stubborn woman  ::) …… Just kidding, totaly read over your post without seeing it  :-[  :-* .

quote :

when i was a small child of 2 or 3 or 4 i knew perfectly well that getting all muddy meant i was going to get a bath – and a spot of yelling – like the time i fell head first in the mud in the park – cousin thought it was hilarious – mater, grandmater et al did NOT.  ditto time i fell head first in canal… (and time i fell out of train – not that i got muddy then – i just needed tying up  ).

duih standing on tablet – immediate planning – hide it – therefore immediate – not future. he not worked out to pretend he’s swallowed it then go and spit it in the bin when i’m not looking – now THAT would be planning. at least i don’t think he has.  will have to start checking the bin.

so i still say no future concept per se. 

Wanna borrow my kids  ::) ? Eldest 6, youngest 4. Memory lasts like the dogs’  😛 .  😀

But if Duih would spit it out that would mean your cooking seriously s.cks  😀 hahahaha…. Don’t think a dog would eat it and spit it out again. They either eat it or not at all.
But with food  :-\ …….. who said, dog either wants to eat it, f.ck it or fight it? In all 3 cases, and just those 3 cases brains are shut down and not used  😛 . So if they do have a sence of future ….. no braincells in active-use to think about it.

[GSPmad]

[quote author=kerrie and stan link=topic=11567.msg224497#msg224497 date=1213705325]
this threads great ;D ok heres another senario (sp)

owner leaves house and comes back in 4 minuets later to find some of the food on the counter in the kitchen gone and dog now laid on sofa. so did the dog hear the key go into the lock then head for the sofa, which surly would indicate ‘future’ thought or did the dog eat some and leave the rest (not likely 😀 ) possibly to eat later again indicating ‘future’ thought.

what are your views ;D ;D
[/quote]

conditioned response – key in lock = human returns = human reacts badly when sees dog at counter nicking food. Not future concept.  ;D

i AM going to win this argument.  😀

[kerrie and stan]

[quote author=GSPmad link=topic=11567.msg224748#msg224748 date=1213772567]
[quote author=kerrie and stan link=topic=11567.msg224497#msg224497 date=1213705325]
this threads great ;D ok heres another senario (sp)

owner leaves house and comes back in 4 minuets later to find some of the food on the counter in the kitchen gone and dog now laid on sofa. so did the dog hear the key go into the lock then head for the sofa, which surly would indicate ‘future’ thought or did the dog eat some and leave the rest (not likely 😀 ) possibly to eat later again indicating ‘future’ thought.

what are your views ;D ;D
[/quote]

conditioned response – key in lock = human returns = human reacts badly when sees dog at counter nicking food. Not future concept.  ;D

i AM going to win this argument.  😀
[/quote]

😀 😀

[GSPmad]

[quote author=Diesel73 link=topic=11567.msg224667#msg224667 date=1213734907]
Didn’t respond to this cause you anoying stubborn woman  ::) …… Just kidding, totaly read over your post without seeing it  :-[  :-* .

quote :

when i was a small child of 2 or 3 or 4 i knew perfectly well that getting all muddy meant i was going to get a bath – and a spot of yelling – like the time i fell head first in the mud in the park – cousin thought it was hilarious – mater, grandmater et al did NOT.   ditto time i fell head first in canal… (and time i fell out of train – not that i got muddy then – i just needed tying up   ).

duih standing on tablet – immediate planning – hide it – therefore immediate – not future. he not worked out to pretend he’s swallowed it then go and spit it in the bin when i’m not looking – now THAT would be planning. at least i don’t think he has.   will have to start checking the bin.

so i still say no future concept per se. 

Wanna borrow my kids  ::) ? Eldest 6, youngest 4. Memory lasts like the dogs’  😛 .  😀

But if Duih would spit it out that would mean your cooking seriously s.cks  😀 hahahaha…. Don’t think a dog would eat it and spit it out again. They either eat it or not at all.
But with food  :-\ …….. who said, dog either wants to eat it, f.ck it or fight it? In all 3 cases, and just those 3 cases brains are shut down and not used  😛 . So if they do have a sence of future ….. no braincells in active-use to think about it.
[/quote]

i am a charismatic vibrant intelligent beautiful (d*** can’t get away with that one have posted pics  😀 ) lady (given various comments i have made prob can’t get away with that one either  😀 ).

was a tablet no food involved.  ;D i don’t do cooking – cook is a 4 letter word.  😉

your dogs want to f*ck their food?  😮  😉

but no arguments in there to counter mine re dogs not having future concept.  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

[Mudgie]

Get a room and take it to another thread  ::)  ;D

[Diesel73]

[quote author=GSPmad link=topic=11567.msg224748#msg224748 date=1213772567]
[quote author=kerrie and stan link=topic=11567.msg224497#msg224497 date=1213705325]
this threads great ;D ok heres another senario (sp)

owner leaves house and comes back in 4 minuets later to find some of the food on the counter in the kitchen gone and dog now laid on sofa. so did the dog hear the key go into the lock then head for the sofa, which surly would indicate ‘future’ thought or did the dog eat some and leave the rest (not likely 😀 ) possibly to eat later again indicating ‘future’ thought.

what are your views ;D ;D
[/quote]

conditioned response – key in lock = human returns = human reacts badly when sees dog at counter nicking food. Not future concept.  ;D

i AM going to win this argument.  😀
[/quote]

Ok ok, i see what you mean. But (ohyeah, there’s a ‘but’  >:D )

Conditioned response – key in lock = human returns… (true) …. = human reacts badly when sees dog at counter nicking food… true again, but… if he got no future concept, than why does he have some past concept?
If dog runs to the door to say hello, he not stupid and will avoid kitchen where the crime happend. So he does know what he did even if it was already 1- 5 minutes ago. Any little longer than that he might have forgotten it, come with me to the kitchen but when boy sees left plastic or pan or whatevr on the floor, the guilty one will hit the breaks and run out again. (if he shows no respons it been longer than that. Or so i asume  😉 .)
And… human reacts badly when sees dog at counter nicking food so must get me someplace else…. That’s anticipating for a part. Must leave, go elswhere is anticipating what is coming. Head for the sofa pretending the 7 dwarfs stole it is ‘planning’ to look innocent. Planning is something in the (nearby) future. No?

quote :

i AM going to win this argument. 

You think? I’m not so sure…..==>

quote :

your dogs want to f*ck their food?   

OR! I said “who said, dog either wants to eat it, f.ck it OR fight it?”. You already sooo heated up so….
[quote author=Mudgie link=topic=11567.msg224762#msg224762 date=1213779828]
Get a room and take it to another thread  ::)  ;D
[/quote]
Yup, Let’s go  >:D ! I’m am so winning, on this board or in the room  :-* . It’s a win-win situation for me 😀 hahaha.

[GSPmad]

[quote author=Diesel73 link=topic=11567.msg224965#msg224965 date=1213819017]

Ok ok, i see what you mean. But (ohyeah, there’s a ‘but’  >:D )

Conditioned response – key in lock = human returns… (true) …. = human reacts badly when sees dog at counter nicking food… true again, but… if he got no future concept, than why does he have some past concept?
If dog runs to the door to say hello, he not stupid and will avoid kitchen where the crime happend. So he does know what he did even if it was already 1- 5 minutes ago. Any little longer than that he might have forgotten it, come with me to the kitchen but when boy sees left plastic or pan or whatevr on the floor, the guilty one will hit the breaks and run out again. (if he shows no respons it been longer than that. Or so i asume  😉 .)
And… human reacts badly when sees dog at counter nicking food so must get me someplace else…. That’s anticipating for a part. Must leave, go elswhere is anticipating what is coming. Head for the sofa pretending the 7 dwarfs stole it is ‘planning’ to look innocent. Planning is something in the (nearby) future. No?

[/quote]

that is past concept – learning from past experience – if they couldn’t do that they wouldn’t be able to learn.  😉 doesn’t mean they have to have a future concept.  😀

and would say he doesn’t necessarily know what he did – he has learnt from reaction of human in past and seeks to avoid that reaction.  🙂 so i would say he not looking innocent – he behaving in a way that will usually get a favourable response from the human.  ;D and avoiding the place where the unfavourable response happens\ happened.  😉

[GSPmad]

sorry, can’t do split quotes so having to do separate posts.

[quote author=Diesel73 link=topic=11567.msg224965#msg224965 date=1213819017]

quote :

your dogs want to f*ck their food?   

OR! I said “who said, dog either wants to eat it, f.ck it OR fight it?”.
[/quote]

yes but you were talking about food.  ;D ;D ;D

fighting food i can understand – have to catch your prey. eating food – yep. but f*cking it….  😀 😀 😀 suppose if it was a veeeeerrry attractive sheep they could be tempted.  😀

[Diesel73]

quote :

and would say he doesn’t necessarily know what he did – he has learnt from reaction of human in past and seeks to avoid that reaction.  😀 so i would say he not looking innocent – he behaving in a way that will usually get a favourable response from the human.  ;D and avoiding the place where the unfavourable response happens\ happened.  😉 

Am giving you little time to rethink this and perhaps change the choise of words, cause i think you say wrong what you mean. See, ‘seeks to avoid’, ‘avoiding the place’…. is anticipating and planning. But you don’t agree that dogs can do that. (Right? Or did that come from someone else?  :-[ )

Anyway, the ability to plan means you got to have some concept, no matter how limited, but some concept of the future.

[quote author=GSPmad link=topic=11567.msg225072#msg225072 date=1213825511]
sorry, can’t do split quotes so having to do separate posts.

[quote author=Diesel73 link=topic=11567.msg224965#msg224965 date=1213819017]

quote :

your dogs want to f*ck their food?   

OR! I said “who said, dog either wants to eat it, f.ck it OR fight it?”.
[/quote]

yes but you were talking about food.  ;D ;D ;D

fighting food i can understand – have to catch your prey. eating food – yep. but f*cking it….  😀 😀 😀 suppose if it was a veeeeerrry attractive sheep they could be tempted.  😀
[/quote]
Done having to experience the sight of that, been there with Thor  ::) . Don’t ask, to crazy for words  :-X .

[GSPmad]

[quote author=Diesel73 link=topic=11567.msg225203#msg225203 date=1213891389]

quote :

and would say he doesn’t necessarily know what he did – he has learnt from reaction of human in past and seeks to avoid that reaction.   😀 so i would say he not looking innocent – he behaving in a way that will usually get a favourable response from the human.   ;D and avoiding the place where the unfavourable response happens\ happened.  😉 

Am giving you little time to rethink this and perhaps change the choise of words, cause i think you say wrong what you mean. See, ‘seeks to avoid’, ‘avoiding the place’…. is anticipating and planning. But you don’t agree that dogs can do that. (Right? Or did that come from someone else?  :-[ )

Anyway, the ability to plan means you got to have some concept, no matter how limited, but some concept of the future.

[/quote]

stop trying to confuse me.  ::) >:D 😀

what i was saying was – they learn from the past – what was being described are learnt behaviours – not future planning.  🙂

and you going to have to tell about thor now….  😀 wtf did he do??! (or maybe that’s not how i should phrase the question  😀 ).

[Diesel73]

quote :

stop trying to confuse me.    ::)  >:D  😀

what i was saying was – they learn from the past – what was being described are learnt behaviours – not future planning.  🙂

Yes, ok, i agree on the first part, just not the ‘not future planning’ part  😛 .
Is true, they learn from the past…. But if they learn from the past, they know what is pleasurable, they know what gives a bad feeling,even if it’s learned in the past it has to mean they got a memory ….. To have that capability it has to mean that it can go foreward too.
My boys… we go on holiday…. take suitcase of the attic. Wodan camping in my suitcase  ::) . He moody and sticks to me like velcro. Moment i put dogstuff together in bags, Wodan happy bouncing around. Not stickystick no more. And will sleep in the car when he gets the chance.
So…. he does remember what things go in car with suitcase when we go on holiday, and from thàt he knows he coming or not. So in my view he ‘plans’ to stickstick to my leg to make sure he might have an oppertunity to jump in the car with us when we leave. But that would mean he know what is coming.

(btw I always start packing 3 weeks in advance  ::)  )

quote :

and you going to have to tell about thor now….  😀  wtf did he do??! (or maybe that’s not how i should phrase the question  😀  ).

:-[ ……… Ow ok  ::) …….
we went for a walk, on way home always passed neighbour’s place. He had sheep and an old English sheepdog. Thor haaaated that sheepdog. Always had to keep eyes open. He very good recall and 100% relyable. Did IPO on level 3. But when thàt sheepdog apeared…… Battlestatioooons  >:D !
So i always kept him very close beside me. Was no problem with no lead aslong as i kept him beside me. But one day he just took of and disapeared out of sight. I running like crazy after him. But i much slower than he is jumping over fences. Thought the worst. Thought those 2 (sheepdog and Thor) were tearing eachother apart. Finaly got there with my tongue on my shoes, lungs burning, pain in the side, only to find Thor jiggyjiggy with 1 of neighbours sheep just outside the barn  ::) . Looked around me. Nobody home, no sheepdog in sight nor heard. Grabbed Thor, put him on lead, dragged his a.se home and tried very had to forget about it.  :-X
Still don’t know why he did that  ???  . He never did that again. But than i never let him near sheep again  ::) . Herding cows, that he was good at  😉 .

[Gracie]

[quote author=Diesel73 link=topic=11567.msg224622#msg224622 date=1213730767]
[quote author=kerrie and stan link=topic=11567.msg224497#msg224497 date=1213705325]
this threads great ;D ok heres another senario (sp)

owner leaves house and comes back in 4 minuets later to find some of the food on the counter in the kitchen gone and dog now laid on sofa. so did the dog hear the key go into the lock then head for the sofa, which surly would indicate ‘future’ thought or did the dog eat some and leave the rest (not likely 😀 ) possibly to eat later again indicating ‘future’ thought.

what are your views ;D ;D
[/quote]
Well i’m sure of that.That dog knows, sh.t get out of here and head for sofa as if 7 dwarfs stole the food cause trouble for me is comming. Diesel done something in the house he not suppost to, than he will say hihi very quick and sneeeeeeeak out of the livingroom. Some food still on table? Oh yeah, mister got interupted whillst nicking some. But he’ll make damne sure he nowhere near the table incase whe should find out our eatable stuff went ‘missing’.
I don’t think dogs think in future tence when it comes to food. It’s either now or not at all.

Wodan…. difficult one for this example  ::) ………. He would sooner feel up the vacumcleaner than stealing food  😛 . Can leave food on the floor with chocolate on it, he won’t eat it unless i say he can  :-\ . Not even if i leave food on the coffee table and go to bed with him sleeping on the sofa all night. He won’t touch it. But little bro………..  >:D
[/quote]

ahh but, you saying here dog reacts to the key in door so no future concept yes? but is not your argument for the thread that the dog has future concept??  🙂 (or am i thinking of someone else)
and to think you trying to confuse Terry  ;D  ;D

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