choke chains

[.dodger.]

i thought a check chain was with the collar and chain together and the choke chain was just the chain that tightens ???

[quote author=Val link=topic=13940.msg264293#msg264293 date=1237833704]
Yes they are the same thing choke check

[quote author=claire wills + bonnie link=topic=13940.msg264292#msg264292 date=1237833606]
Hi,

so a check chain and choke chain are the same thing ??

i dont want to offend anyone – i just interested to know OK so please dont anyone get all cross – but if a dog reacts to the chain jingle hasnt it at some point been conditioned to avoid (as in yanked and punished) ?

Claire x
[/quote]
[/quote]

[tri 'n snatch it bonnie girl]

collar and chain together is a half check isnt it ???

[kizkiznobite]

ok…lets get jargonish and techy

….a check/choke….call it what you will whatever makes you feel better is a negative reinforcer….it is R- operant conditiong….something bad is added the behaviour will increase….in the choke chain sense the bad thing is the check…the behaviour of avoiding the choke will be increased….or as in justines example the dog learns that there is a greater reward and goes through the pain/discomfort barrier…it is hard to control, as the removal of the ‘bad thing’ requires careful management…the ‘jingle’ kicks in as a warning; that the bad thing is coming…dog reacts to avoid the bad thing…which is why many dogs will walk on a chain but then not on a normal collar set up…ok claire?

laura…you a different generation flower…chain collars regardless of how much leather on are check/chokes…some are ‘half’ checks…etc…fancy names is all…same principle….

the name was changed is all to make them sound better….folk that are negative to them still call them chokes…folk that need the nice word call them checks…dont matter…same education science…same principle…call em what you like…they are what they are….

the show set ups are used as val says…they designed to minimise the effect of a collar on the dog and to teach dog head position…but by that time in dogs life then it dont matter…as val said…the not used to choke check strangle punish be a negative re-enforcer…they to ‘display’ the dog

and

if you decide to use…then dump the small links…the large link chains are marginally safer…

me done..me out of here…have seen, repaired, modified so many dogs that have had these things around their necks…anyone want info on what damage they do to mind body and spirit…pm me…

[tri 'n snatch it bonnie girl]

correct me if i am wrong but i would think that if you used one of these on a dog who wasnt trained you’d get coat caught up in them and pull it out – specially with a rough/beardie etc .. ?

bev – i get that it acts as a warning of something bad, and it avoidance 🙂  can i assume then any dog which shows this reaction has experienced the checking – which is punishing the dog.  so this is “something bad is added and the behaviour decreases” yes ?

aagh brain stuck is that P (because it punishes the dog) and + (because its added) ?  nb. if i am wrong i think i might need it explaining in person sometime because i have read it a zillion times it just dont go in !

claire x

[kizkiznobite]

it is R- something bad is taken away the behaviouir is increased…

it is a punisher…an aversive if you will…but in the operant sense it is a negative re-enforcer

a p+ reduces the behavioiur…the behaviour is punished…not the dog…a R- punishes the dog not the behaviour

[*Lassie*]

aagh brain stuck is that P (because it punishes the dog) and + (because its added) ?  nb. if i am wrong i think i might need it explaining in person sometime because i have read it a zillion times it just dont go in !

Glad I’m not the only one that gets in a muddle with it

[tri 'n snatch it bonnie girl]

grrrr – i just knew i wouldnt get that right, i find it so frustrating – i dont suppose any teachers out there have a funky mnemonic or rhyme or something ..?

i get that it punishes the dog not the behaviour but my brain stops there !

claire x

[kizkiznobite]

go out of the ‘human’ logic box…out of the way the modern human brain uses language…use dog think/logic

something bad is taken away…the choke stops ….the bad is taken away

the behaviour (NOT PULLING) is increased…

the dog stops pulling (behaviour) because if s/he does the bad thing stops….the bad thing is taken away…it stops…it is re-enforced because an aversive does not kick in

the dog no longer pulls because if s/he did the bad thing would come back….

[*Lassie*]

that makes sense :yes:

[tri 'n snatch it bonnie girl]

it always makes sense to me !!

my brain just doesnt see it like that 😀

problem – pulling on leash

behavour – pulling

so …

something bad added (choke)

behaviour (pulling) decreases

mind you …… 1 x 0 = 1 …. because you have 1 apple in your hand you “times it” by no apples – you still got the apple aint ya – DUUUH ……. :ok:

[kizkiznobite]

it isnt a multiple…it a reactive  🙂

[tri 'n snatch it bonnie girl]

but its added and the behaviour decreases …….. ?

itisitisitis ????????????

[Mudgie]

something added to make behaviour decrease
is positive punishment

something added to make behaviour increase
is positive reinforcement

something taken away to make behaviour decrease
is negative punishment

something taken away to make behaviour increase
is negative reinforcement

doesnt matter whether we think it is good or bad it is whether it is added or taken away that makes it positive or negative
whether it increases or decreases behaviour that makes it reinforcement or punishment

[kizkiznobite]

yep mudgie but the problem is modern language / tech language…

for in generic modern terms a negative re-enforcer is an aversive …and that ‘punishment’ in that modern terms/view point but…when skinner came up with the terminology then he meant punishment in the menta/scientific sense and that is where much confusion arises

[Mudgie]

bottom line is choke chains/check chains can do major damage – post mortems on service dogs confirm that – changes will happen but they take time – as with everything that has been used for generations.

I think also (as I have in past) when people think of positive they think of it as being good – what might be good for one dog is not good for another – water for example – squirting water at some dogs may be a positive punishment however for others it is opportunity to play  ;D

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