Positive punishment

[cjane]

Not sure I’ve got the terminology right, in terms of Operant Conditioning, but I talking about things like the rattle bottle, spray collars, training discs, corrections, checking etc.  My question is, is there a place for these sorts of techiques/tools in dog training?

CJ

[Izzie]

Not really, why use  positive punishment when you can use more effectively positive reinforcement?

[Kerry_and_Beau]

well if you watch dog borstal they would think so and they obviously work….but i don’t like them, spray collars and rattle bottles etc i dunno how to explain how i feel…

i don’t think scaring the cr@p out of your dog is really a training option, ok you’ll probably scare him enough to not go near whatever it is you don’t want him to, but its just not for me…

i watched the dog whisper do this in a day with will smith’s wife’s dogs as one nearly died by being bitten by a snake, so he went spent the day with a load of snakes and i think a spray collar (i think) and taught the dogs not to go near snakes…it worked…

its just so extreme, maybe in a life or death situation and all other avenues have been exhausted but…..nah just don’t think its for me, much rather go along positive reinforcement.

[Prem2Pram]

Those sort of techniques are used to interrupt undesired behaviour thus giving the owner a chance to redirect the dogs behaviour.

[wags]

personally i think it all depends on the dog

and if yours is anything like mine he’d turn round look at you with a “fuc* you” face on him

[Anonymous]

Hi,

CJ – for you and Tai, absolutely most definately  :nono:

They are generally used by very poor trainers to very bad effect and as such are a complete waste of time which only end up scaring your dog and giving you a bigger problem than you had before.  You also cannot use them alongside positive methods its confusing for the dog.

However in some cases in very experienced hands it does have its uses.

The opposite of reward is non-reward … not punishment 🙂

why do you ask ?

Claire x

[Anonymous]

CM used a shock collar  :boooo: :boooo: :boooo: :boooo: :boooo: a very very very big  :nono:

He never uses spray collars >:( >:( >:(

[kizkiznobite]

[quote author=cjane link=topic=12543.msg242470#msg242470 date=1222351107]
Not sure I’ve got the terminology right, in terms of Operant Conditioning, but I talking about things like the rattle bottle, spray collars, training discs, corrections, checking etc.  My question is, is there a place for these sorts of techiques/tools in dog training?

CJ
[/quote]

if they are going to be used they need to be used correctly….it is a copy of nature…the problem is we cannot copy nature the way nature does it…if it doesnt work the first time it wont work…it will break some dogs it will make others work harder to avoid….collies are brill at avoiding…also there is a real need for a clear understanding between a punisher and an aversive…..much easier and kinder to use R+

[cjane]

How would you describe the difference between an aversive and a punisher?

[Kerry_and_Beau]

[quote author=Dyane Jones link=topic=12543.msg242496#msg242496 date=1222363933]
CM used a shock collar  :boooo: :boooo: :boooo: :boooo: :boooo: a very very very big  :nono:

He never uses spray collars >:( >:( >:(
[/quote]

sorry was a while back saw that episode thought it was a spray one.

[kizkiznobite]

the example i always use for clients…think it on here somewhere but here it is again…

if my son hits his head on an open cupboard door then it is an aversive – next time he will hopefully remember and not repeat the behaviour – that is an aversive action – if however – he goes to grab something out of the cupboard and i bang his head with the door then it is an aversive that is done on purpose –  this is punishment and it re-enforces me but did it teach him a lesson? it may have but it may not have.

When this sort of punishment is applied to dogs then it is more than likely that the punishment did not coincide with the behaviour being punished it is then an aversive and the dog is more than likely to associate you with a punishment rather than a correction of a behaviour so basically all punishments are aversives but not all aversives are punishments

By correcting behaviours and rewarding the corrections then you are re-enforcing the required behaviour – by punishing the behaviour then rewarding the correction then you risk merely re-enforcing yourself and then the dog will work to avoid.

had a a call 2 days ago…lady with a staff pup…7 months jumps up folk with excitement esp visitors when the arrive ..typical mad staffie puppy behaviour…got in a behaviourist (wont tell you how much but horrific) …discs advised, shown how to use ‘correctly’…didnt work…lady called behaviourist after 2 days and pup getting nervous and anxious when door bell rang….lady said discs not working…behaviourist said then throw them so they hit the feet….and also stop fussing the pup …isolate pup from yourself…you have boneded too much..

yeah right  ::)

[kizkiznobite]

some ‘nature’ examples …just to clarify what i on about  🙂

brose was stung by a bee…she never touched one again…something bad was added (the sting) the behaviour (chasing bee’s) decreased

ami was stung by a bee…she was then stung again …she was then stung by a wasp (wasps sting more than once as often as not it got her 3 times)…she went through the pain barrier of the 1 sting from a bee ..she still chases bee’s…she learnt to catch them in a way that she no longer gets stung..she worked out how to avoid the punishment..she leaves wasps alone…

falkor is severely allergic…he needs a pen shot if he gets stung…he avoids like the plague…hears a bee..any bee…even those on that tele advert…and he chooses flight everytime

cubert got stung by a wasp…he avoids wasps but still chases bee’s

we find this very hard to copy…

[cjane]

Very subtle difference between the two terms then. 

So is a punishment an ‘effective’ aversive?  ie an aversive that is delivered at the right time, that has the desired result of modifying behaviour in the way that was intended.

An aversive may be ineffective, and therefore not a punishment, if it was badly delivered/timed, causes avoidance or modifies behaviour in a way that was not intended.

[kizkiznobite]

depends on what dog, what aversive and what behaviour

as in the nature examples above…4 dogs same breed different temperaments and different conditionings…brose and falkor … cross over clicker dogs…ami and cubert not…

give me a personal example of what you have tried or thinking of trying…

[cjane]

Someone I visited with T used a rattle bottle to stop him chasing some sheep. He only needed to use it once and T stayed well clear of the sheep after.

You see the techniques used frequently on TV programmes like Dog Borstal, Cesar Milan etc., just wanted to get the opinions on people on the board.  Do they rule them out completely, or is there a place for them in some circumstances for some dogs?

CJ

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