Positive punishment

[*Lassie*]

[quote author=SuzAndTheDiva link=topic=12543.msg243385#msg243385 date=1222891228]
[quote author=Dree link=topic=12543.msg243318#msg243318 date=1222807318]
We had a rescue collie in once.  I went into his outside run, emptied his stainless steel water dish to take it away and replace with fresh water.  As I walked away, he bit the back of my leg…it really hurt!…and I didn’t even think….I whacked him on the head with the dish.  He never bit anyone on the back of the leg or ankles again.  That was the main reason he was in rescue…..he was biting the kids ankles.  Now……was that positive punishment?  😉
[/quote]

positive punishment – nope i call that totally uneccesary – made me so sad to read that.

And I do think GSP bought up some valid points………………..
[/quote]

Something bad happens and the behaviour decreases but that act was instinctive reaction so not planned.
Yes GPS had some valid points but I wouldn’t class that collie as aggressive just ill taught and bad mannered. May have been just as easy to teach using remodified using positive – as in reinforcement not punishment techniques but as he didn’t show the behaviour again ………
Not saying it’s the best way of training any dog but life is not black and white  and sometimes we do things we may not mean to  

[Mudgie]

hi everyone – not quite with it yet but there is a lot of stuff contained in this thread not just about postive punishment – whatever that means  >:(

This is how I see it – I do not want my dogs to be freaked out by anything – I want them to trust me 100% – because they trust me, because they love me, because they respect me.  I want my dogs to behave and be obedient (not brainwashed) because they know that makes me happy and as pack manager they want to make me happy – because it gives them structure and confiidence and boundaries  :-*  I love my dog(s) with my whole heart – I would never hurt them emotionally or physically – with a breed as sensitive as a weim I would break their personality.   :'(  I have seen dogs in the street walk behind their owners and can tell by the relationship they have whether “positive punishment” is part of their lives.   >:(  Dogs are scavengers first and foremost – every dog I have ever had has been a counter surfer – get a good Leave it or “not yours” and then only things coins in a jar should be used for are savings.  If you need to go down that line then you dont understand dogs at all – my opinion – forgetting all the terminology about conditioning, operant etc etc – dogs should be trained with love, affection and confidence not bullied – I want a good relationship with my dog – I have a fantastic one – would I have his true respect, loyalty, love, adoration, willingness to please me if I treated him with force cruelty aggression – I dont think so.  
These types are training – in my opinion – are used by trainers and/or owners who dont have a clue about a dogs brain and how it works and have went for a quick fix but in reality in isnt a fix at all.  

[Dree]

[quote author=SuzAndTheDiva link=topic=12543.msg243385#msg243385 date=1222891228]

positive punishment – nope i call that totally uneccesary – made me so sad to read that.

[/quote]

What was sadder?  Me giving him a dod on the head….or the big needle??  (And, btw, the dish wasn’t heavy…..it was the shock that stopped him, not any pain.)  I’m not saying what I did was necessarily right.  It was simply a reactive action.  And, quite honestly, sometimes dogs react better to an honest, and instantaneous, action.  Just as an alpha in the pack would have turned on him and shown just how out of order he was, my action was much the same.  I honestly can’t remember if we knew about the nipping when we picked him up….he was a lovely little dog.  And, quite honestly, I am very proud to have been part of saving that dog.

[Dree]

[quote author=*Lassie* link=topic=12543.msg243405#msg243405 date=1222900885]

Something bad happens and the behaviour decreases but that act was instinctive reaction so not planned.
Yes GPS had some valid points but I wouldn’t class that collie as aggressive just ill taught and bad mannered. May have been just as easy to teach using remodified using positive – as in reinforcement not punishment techniques but as he didn’t show the behaviour again ………
Not saying it’s the best way of training any dog but life is not black and white  and sometimes we do things we may not mean to  

[/quote]

Exactly.  I didn’t go out to the run, saying to myself…Right, I’m going to whack this dog on the head.  Bless him, he simply hadn’t been taught not to bite.  A farm bred collie sold to a pet home.  And I don’t go around advising that people hit their dogs on the head.  ;D

[Anonymous]

Hi,

OK – this is very interesting –

The situation does not parallel ‘real life’ in *ANY* way !!

i’m gonna do a bev on you and throw it out because i know why not but …. do you ?

and can you think of any more common examples where people incorrectly cite this ?

Claire.

[Mudgie]

okay let me clarify this – just in case I am wrong – Are you saying that hitting a dog on the head with a bowl is not a bad thing  ???  because if you are – then I think someone has been hitting you on the head with something  >:(  Maybe the dog didnt mean to nip you – maybe your leg was in its way – maybe it was just doing its job and “herding” you – maybe you should have trained the dog and managed that behaviour or hey ho – just hit it on the head – maybe the dog didnt go out of its way to bite you  ::)  Maybe I would be better off hitting my head against a brick wall – because there is NO justification for hitting a dog – positive punishment my butt 

And just for the record – for those that remember the old me  >:D  I am seriously reining myself in with this post because it is seriously hacking me off.

In my opinion – there is no such thing as positive punishment – you can dress it up whatever way you like – behaviour of punishment in no way addresses root causes or remodifies behaviour appropriately and if anyone is using this sort of stuff – then hang your head in shame. 

[GSPmad]

[quote author=Dree link=topic=12543.msg243404#msg243404 date=1222900357]
[quote author=GSPmad link=topic=12543.msg243356#msg243356 date=1222874195]
On the positive punishment point… if I was getting a dog from a rescue and was told that it had come in for herding nipping behaviour but this had been ‘cured’ by positive punishment – specifically by wopping the dog over the head with a water bowl on one occasion- I wouldn’t feel confident that the dog was safely modified myself.  :scared: I would also suspect that the behaviour could have been successfully remodified using positive reinforcement since it stopped so quickly – and that it had been caused by the instinctive behaviour of a working collie being misunderstood by the owners – as so often happens – and not properly trained and channelled.

I have to confess that, particularly in the case of aggressive dogs, I feel safer if they have been remodified using positive – as in reinforcement not punishment  😉 – techniques.
[/quote]

Yep, I agree.  ;D 

[/quote]

Glad of that.  ;D

But – when you say that dogs sometimes respond better to an instant spontaneous action – are you trying to say that positive punishment methods are good and justifiable?  ???  :-\
In what situation would you consider their use appropriate?

And now general points – forgot yesterday – if an active direct physical punishment method is being used on a dog then there is the not inconsiderable risk of getting bitten.  😉 And either making the dog more aggressive, or making it become aggressive when it was not. If an indirect method is used then to me that is cowardly and bullying (the two generally do go hand in hand). And I cannot see any justification for their use when there are fair, kind and effective methods that will also build trust.

The other one is the ‘would they be better euthanased then?’ argument, which drives me – well there aint a smiley (inappropriate word in this case) for how it makes me feel actually. It is the one that I forever seem to see the proponents of Cesar Millan’s foul bullying and intimidation tactics making… To me a) The mess has almost invariably been created by the owner – why is it fair to punish the dog for that? b) Positive reinforcement methods work well and effectively as said above – and also build a bond of trust between dog and owner and to me make for a safer dog. c) I can assure you that there are fates worse than death…. that is why euthanasia is available – for dogs it is about quality of life not quantity and to me if their quality of life is going to be unacceptable compromised by what is ‘needed’ to rehabilitate them and they are going to suffer emotionally or physically, then euthanasia is kinder. It is an emotive argument and one which raises my blood pressure several points.

I met a man in the country park with 3 or 4 dogs… won’t say what breed… we were walking along chatting… He said one of them had been a rescue and he hadn’t been able to get through to her… in the end had passed her over to an army friend of his… who had done it… by using an electric shock collar.  >:D He then proceeded to try and outline the wonders of these devices to me… Now to me, that dog would have come round anyway given time, and if you don’t have the patience to do that and resort to the use of a shock collar and then try to claim it is a wonderful device – you shouldn’t be let near a rescue dog – or possibly even any dog.  >:D

[Mudgie]

why use an electric shock collar when you could just whack it on the head with a dog bowl  ::)

I would like to “train” these people with their own methods – see how much pleasure, confidence and good feeling it gives.

So we punish the dog for our inability to understand or have time and patience to address the issue. 

[Anonymous]

hi,

“punish the behaviour not the dog” ….. comes to mind  :agree:

claire 🙂

[*Lassie*]

sometimes dogs react better to an honest, and instantaneous, action.  Just as an alpha in the pack would have turned on him and shown just how out of order he was, my action was much the same.

It was a reactive to his action not your normal training methods, like Kiz said it would be near impossible to time this type of shock the only time it works is when it is instantaneous and without thought which is way it’s no good as a training method.

[quote author=piglet link=topic=12543.msg243414#msg243414 date=1222938816]
Hi,

OK – this is very interesting –

The situation does not parallel ‘real life’ in *ANY* way !!

i’m gonna do a bev on you and throw it out because i know why not but …. do you ?

and can you think of any more common examples where people incorrectly cite this ?

Claire.
[/quote]

Who is this aimed at Claire?

okay let me clarify this – just in case I am wrong – Are you saying that hitting a dog on the head with a bowl is not a bad thing

She didn’t say it was good but it’s not the worst thing that could of happened.
If you think Dree should be hung for a reaction that if people are honest they may have done the same thing in her place then  you will be throwing stones at me too.
When my son was a newborn he had colic, it was bad – he would scream from 8.00pm in the evening till 5.00 in the morning, this was every night for 4 months. My OH went to bed at 10.00 and left me to it, one night I snapped and smacked him on the nappy. It was a terry nappy and I didn’t smack him hard enough to hurt but in your world he would have been put into care.
There are degrees of black and white, people aren’t perfect we all have failings, there is a lot of difference to a tap on the head with a dog bowl when you have a dog hanging off your leg and a electric shock collar. 🙁
I am a bad owner, I have shouted at Tam when he has been gobby and won’t shut up. I have cut Willow’s dew claw too low and made it bleed.
Yes, and once when Tam was young and overexcited he nipped the inside of my leg and wouldn’t let go, it was badly bruised and bled. How did I get him to let go? the only way I could at the time smacked him on the nose.
If you want me to leave the board, fine, set up a poll and vote.

[Sweetypye]

I have never met the perfect man/person or dog……………

Even I am not perfect……….  :what:

I know it is difficult to believe.

I cannot think of anyone who can hand on heart say they have never acted instinctively, lost their rag at any person/animal/situation………

Mistakes, the person who never made any, never made anything.

And that was why Tippex, erasers and the word “sorry” were created for…………… :ok:

[Mudgie]

I never said I was perfect – far from it.

This is a learning curve for us all – every day we are learning well I certainly am but I dont agree with punishing a dog – big difference between making mistakes and learning from them than using collars and endorsing them.

Unfortunately dogs dont get the concept of “sorry” – I do my best I do what I think is right as we all do but I can say hand on heart I have never deliberately physically hurt my dog(s) – it is only my opinion Lassie – we are all here to learn for ourselves and our dogs.

[Dree]

[quote author=Mudgie link=topic=12543.msg243455#msg243455 date=1222959509]
I never said I was perfect – far from it.

This is a learning curve for us all – every day we are learning well I certainly am but I dont agree with punishing a dog – big difference between making mistakes and learning from them than using collars and endorsing them.

Unfortunately dogs dont get the concept of “sorry” – I do my best I do what I think is right as we all do but I can say hand on heart I have never deliberately physically hurt my dog(s) – it is only my opinion Lassie – we are all here to learn for ourselves and our dogs.

[/quote]

I must admit it has taken me a little while to be able to reply to the vitriole that has been posted on here.  My thanks to Lassie and Sweetypye for understanding.  From giving a dog a tap on the head (once in my life) to using shock collars is quite a jump.  Mudgie:-  I have never deliberately hurt any dog/s either.  If you read my post again, my reaction was instant….it was not a planned reaction.

You said, Mudgie:- why use an electric shock collar when you could just whack it on the head with a dog bowl  and quite honestly I was really hurt by that.  I’m not quite sure why you are using such an analogy……it would seem that for putting an honest reaction (and asking for opinion on it) on a board, I then go on to be villified and compared to CM.  One tap with a dog bowl becomes using collars and endorsing them as you said.  Are you really trying to say that because I (once) smacked a dog, I then go on to using shock collars???

It would be nice to actually have a decent discussion about why it happened, how it happened, did it work, why did it work, etc., etc. (as in an actual discussion on the heading!) rather than have people (who seem to be more than perfect) tear the action apart, and then sink to comparing it (and therefore me?) to someone who uses shock collars, and have the whole subject deteriorate into a what an awful person I am.  To say that you are discouraging discussion is putting it rather mildly.

[Anonymous]

Hi,

Lassie – interesting you think i am wrong for ‘reacting’ when you are just as insulting and rude.

the point is Dree is trying to justify her actions in terms of “alpha dog behaviour” and that is a pile of poo.  she hit the dog – it stopped but we’ve no measures of how reliable the behaviour was etc… and it is not everyones “instinctive reaction” to hit a dog with a bowl when bitten any more than it is to hit a child – i mean really what does it achieve except to make you feel better as apparently it doesnt “hurt” the child ….i stand by my comment that people this reactive shouldnt be working with reactive dogs.

the other commonly used example is pinning/rolling dogs.

i am sure i didnt mention perfect anywhere

Claire.

p.s. Dree – the answer is simple, it happened because you lost control, it worked because “something bad added=behaviour decreases”.  Personally I happen to think your comments show huge knowledge gaps for someone apparently working with challenging dogs.  You also need to understand your “instinct” is to lash out but for others it is NOT the norm that you dealt with it in this way.

[Izzie]

But accepting that pet dog owners will of course respond to a bite, do you not think as a trainer and a behaviourist working with aggressive dogs as per your previous posts you should be trained to not react to a bite ?

[Author]

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