Pre mating…..

[GSPmad]

think they just mean that’s the only vacc you can mix the herpes one with sue, not that you have to – if herpes vacc comes in powder form they can just make it up with sterile water, you don’t have to give the lepto as well.

[Dree]

[quote author=GSPmad link=topic=12683.msg245701#msg245701 date=1224284642]
To some extent. But in that case would you not agree… owner anxious about dog… stressed… dog stress of illness and stressed because owner is stressed… stress hormones delay healing\ getting well. Owner gives dog something they believe will help (eg placebo) – they are happier – dog picks up on that – stress reduces – body better able to fight illness. See where I’m going?  🙂 Don’t always need medication for whatever illness to get better – body’s own immune system and defences can sort it (except in my case where everything is duff  ::) ).
[/quote]

But if you are talking about a puppy who’s immune system is failing it?  A pup which is seriously ill?  Can a pup really be cured by the owner simply giving a placebo because the owner desperately wants it to work?  Mmmmm….  I can see where you’re coming from re: an adult dog.  And also if the person who is doling out the medication really believes in what they’re giving.  With the dog we gave the Thuja to…..my OH didn’t believe in it one bit….and I hadn’t a clue about homeopathy anyway, so…..why did it work?

[Anonymous]

well thats rather obvious really – homeopathic remedies do work  ::)

what i said is that in *some* cases IMO alternative remedies work more effectively in those who put their belief/trust into them.  i then *likened* this to the placebo effect in humans and and this is a scientifically proven strong effect, terry expanded it to adult dogs as they feed from our emotions/state of mind. 

as you might have guessed, i dont like intervention myself – thats why i had my baby at home because its not a bloody illness* its a natural thing which happens all over the world every minute without any bossy doctors.

i do find losing tiny ones quite interesting, i also wonder if using dogs who have had assisted survival for breeding is not helping the overall health.  perhaps it is this which keeps things like FPS going by transferring vulnerabilities into new generations.  i could certainly see that a genetically predisposed puppy or even slightly weaker/under developed ones (bearing in mind they dont all develop at the same rate) could get overloaded with immune supressing hormones from mum and within itself during pregnancy, labour and birth and then through feeding aswell . . . and be so bad at birth it never recovers – remember the same hormones which switch off the immune system also shut down hunger signals and digestion …

*incase i need to point out the obvious you – do need to make sure you are healthy and make plans as appropriate to your individual situation.

claire.

[GSPmad]

[quote author=Dree link=topic=12683.msg245739#msg245739 date=1224342763]
[quote author=GSPmad link=topic=12683.msg245701#msg245701 date=1224284642]
To some extent. But in that case would you not agree… owner anxious about dog… stressed… dog stress of illness and stressed because owner is stressed… stress hormones delay healing\ getting well. Owner gives dog something they believe will help (eg placebo) – they are happier – dog picks up on that – stress reduces – body better able to fight illness. See where I’m going?  🙂 Don’t always need medication for whatever illness to get better – body’s own immune system and defences can sort it (except in my case where everything is duff  ::) ).
[/quote]

But if you are talking about a puppy who’s immune system is failing it?  A pup which is seriously ill?  Can a pup really be cured by the owner simply giving a placebo because the owner desperately wants it to work?  Mmmmm….  I can see where you’re coming from re: an adult dog.  And also if the person who is doling out the medication really believes in what they’re giving.  With the dog we gave the Thuja to…..my OH didn’t believe in it one bit….and I hadn’t a clue about homeopathy anyway, so…..why did it work?

[/quote]

Puppies get a lot of protective antibodies from colostrum from the mother – as I understand it newborn pups don’t have that brilliant an immune system – same as they cannot regulate body temperature as well etc….

My point in that situation was: owner is stressed as pups are ill, ergo bitch is stressed. (or bitch is stressed for another reason… obv whelping is stressful to some extent for her anyway). Stress hormones go into colostrum\milk. Has a direct effect on puppies – stress hormones suppress immune system – and  since they will also be suppressing bitch’s immune system – less antibodies in colostrum etc. Human has something they believe will help pups – they become less stressed. Bitch becomes less stressed. Less stress hormones etc, => passes to pups. They improve.

My other point is that sometimes animals will get better anyway – regardless of what medication they are given or not given.

Personally I like things I can understand – conventional meds have a known and proven mode of action. Herbal ditto to some extent – eg aspirin (salicylic acid) was originally derived from willow bark – ergo willow bark itself should act as an anti-inflammatory – natural, non synthetic (argument I used when I told my doctor I was taking valerian and he  ::) ). Acupuncture has a scientific basis involving pain gates.

However there are people that I know that I would trust not just to be “believing something works” that have assured me they have seen homeopathic remedies work. I believe them. I don’t like not understanding how they work – but just because I don’t understand doesn’t mean they don’t – hell I have no idea what’s going on inside this computer but it works!! So yes I believe they can work.

That still doesn’t alter the placebo effect being able to work on dogs, which is what we were discussing.

[Dree]

[quote author=piglet link=topic=12683.msg245740#msg245740 date=1224344502]
well thats rather obvious really – homeopathic remedies do work  ::)
[/quote]

Well yes….I know that now  🙂 ….but I didn’t then. 

[quote author=piglet link=topic=12683.msg245740#msg245740 date=1224344502]
what i said is that in *some* cases IMO alternative remedies work more effectively in those who put their belief/trust into them.  i then *likened* this to the placebo effect in humans and and this is a scientifically proven strong effect, terry expanded it to adult dogs as they feed from our emotions/state of mind. 
[/quote]

Okay, I can run with that.  🙂

[quote author=piglet link=topic=12683.msg245740#msg245740 date=1224344502]
i do find losing tiny ones quite interesting, i also wonder if using dogs who have had assisted survival for breeding is not helping the overall health.  perhaps it is this which keeps things like FPS going by transferring vulnerabilities into new generations.  i could certainly see that a genetically predisposed puppy or even slightly weaker/under developed ones (bearing in mind they dont all develop at the same rate) could get overloaded with immune supressing hormones from mum and within itself during pregnancy, labour and birth and then through feeding aswell . . . and be so bad at birth it never recovers – remember the same hormones which switch off the immune system also shut down hunger signals and digestion …
[/quote]

Brilliantly said.  It’s what I strongly believe about the health (or lack of) in dogs today.  By continually vaccinating, etc. against illness, we are producing pups which are immune suppressed generation after generation.  Instead of Naturally reared pups from dam and sire which are raw fed, unvaccinated *for anything*, we are instead producing litter after litter of over-vaccinated, kibble-reared pups whose immune systems are low from the start.  And then we are surprised when they succumb to illness. 

Why are we so surprised that there are more and more immune diseases, that the vaccine manufacturers are producing more and more vaccines for more and more diseases.  It’s a vicious circle, and unfortunately more and more people fall into the trap of vaccinating for every “new” disease that appears…..when, in fact, that new disease is a product of ill-health itself.  (Of couse, the “people” does not include those here who don’t vaccinate, raw feed, etc.  😉 )

[Dree]

[quote author=GSPmad link=topic=12683.msg245741#msg245741 date=1224345626]
Puppies get a lot of protective antibodies from colostrum from the mother – as I understand it newborn pups don’t have that brilliant an immune system – same as they cannot regulate body temperature as well etc….

My point in that situation was: owner is stressed as pups are ill, ergo bitch is stressed. (or bitch is stressed for another reason… obv whelping is stressful to some extent for her anyway). Stress hormones go into colostrum\milk. Has a direct effect on puppies – stress hormones suppress immune system – and  since they will also be suppressing bitch’s immune system – less antibodies in colostrum etc. Human has something they believe will help pups – they become less stressed. Bitch becomes less stressed. Less stress hormones etc, => passes to pups. They improve.
[/quote]

But if the pups have stopped feeding, as is the case with fading pups, then the dam’s milk and therefore her stress levels have nothing to do with the treatment being given *directly* to the pups?

[quote author=GSPmad link=topic=12683.msg245741#msg245741 date=1224345626]
My other point is that sometimes animals will get better anyway – regardless of what medication they are given or not given.
[/quote]

Unfortunatley, I haven’t found this to be the case with fading puppies.  They continue to fade.

[quote author=GSPmad link=topic=12683.msg245741#msg245741 date=1224345626]
That still doesn’t alter the placebo effect being able to work on dogs, which is what we were discussing.
[/quote]

Mmmm….I still say I see where you’re coming from, but not totally convinced yet.  :-\

[Anonymous]

hi,

from what i learned last weekend even people who are 1st/2nd/3rd gen ‘natural pups’ on both sides will still be passing on genetic information ‘bred in’ from vaccine damage (& other factors).

i was really sad when i learned that there is an opinion that HIV was transferred from animals to humans through the cultivation process of live vaccines.  it made me feel shame to be of scientific mind.

one of the main problems is money – the establishments who train the “experts” are funded by . . .  large commercial animal feed manufacturers and large pharmaceutical companies.  the curriculums are forced in a direction which ensures the medical model is pushed to the extreme and that no pet owner should be able to treat or feed their own dog. 

interestingly, the new “cure all” CBT does the complete opposite and takes peoples reliance on professionals away and gives them the power to live their own life. 

my hope for the future is that a new generation of animal professionals – these will be much more species specific and hugely more aware of the whole animal-owner relationship and give the power back to the pet owners 🙂  i see these people coming from courses like bishop burton and sitting inbetween vets and alternative therapists to help encourage more ‘mainstream’ people into seeing there is a balance to be attained here and also give advice on diet and relationships that vets lack 🙂

i guess some of this issue depends on owner/breeder/vet knowledge kicking about at the time – newborn human babies pronounced ftt are given hydration salts IV and tubed milk (mums or synthetic).  i dont know how intensive intervention is for tiny pups as i’ve never been there.

claire x

[GSPmad]

But if the pups have stopped feeding, as is the case with fading pups, then the dam’s milk and therefore her stress levels have nothing to do with the treatment being given *directly* to the pups?

What are they being fed on then? They will definitely die if the don’t have any nutrition… Artificial milk? In that situation – not one I have been in – where the bitch is producing milk – I would take milk from the bitch to feed the pups via a dropper if they need hand-feeding….

Unfortunatley, I haven’t found this to be the case with fading puppies.  They continue to fade.

I wasn’t talking specifically about fading puppies – it was a general point – you also mentioned other things in your post besides fading puppies.

Mmmm….I still say I see where you’re coming from, but not totally convinced yet.  :-\

It was discussion of a hypothesis not a Nobel Prize thesis…. just what I thought was an interesting point of debate.  :-\

[Dree]

[quote author=GSPmad link=topic=12683.msg245749#msg245749 date=1224351007]
What are they being fed on then? They will definitely die if the don’t have any nutrition… Artificial milk? In that situation – not one I have been in – where the bitch is producing milk – I would take milk from the bitch to feed the pups via a dropper if they need hand-feeding….
[/quote]

Fading puppies, if fed Raspberry Compound….it is made into a liquid, and honey is added.  Honey is a food in itself.

Unfortunatley, I haven’t found this to be the case with fading puppies.  They continue to fade.

[quote author=GSPmad link=topic=12683.msg245749#msg245749 date=1224351007]
I wasn’t talking specifically about fading puppies – it was a general point – you also mentioned other things in your post besides fading puppies.
[/quote]

I know.  But the point I was trying to make was the “stress” factor….that the de-stressing in the dam will not affect the health or recovery of pups if they are not being fed from her.

Mmmm….I still say I see where you’re coming from, but not totally convinced yet.  :-\

It was discussion of a hypothesis not a Nobel Prize thesis…. just what I thought was an interesting point of debate.  :-\
[/quote]

Yes, very interesting.  :yes:

[Dree]

[quote author=jaydex link=topic=12683.msg245722#msg245722 date=1224327248]
       
EURICAN L, thats an annual booster isnt it?

[/quote]

EURICAN L is the Lepto vaccine.  I looked it up just out of interest.  Here it is:-
http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:holF-ENVXNoJ:www.vmd.gov.uk/espcsite/Documents/141127.DOC+EURICAN+L&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1

“The vaccine stimulates active immunity against Leptospira canicola and Leptospira icterohaemorrhagiae leptospiroses.”

So….this Lepto vaccine only protects against two serovars!!  😮  But there are over 200 serovars out there!!!  Why are we vaccinating with this at all???

[Anonymous]

i have said this atleast half a dozen times since i came back from last weekend !!!!!!!!!!!!

i think de-stressing the dam would certainly help pups even ones that arent being fed from her but its going to be a little part of the whole treatment – not “the cure” if you get what i mean 🙂

claire x

[Dree]

[quote author=GSPmad link=topic=12683.msg245749#msg245749 date=1224351007]
It was discussion of a hypothesis not a Nobel Prize thesis…. just what I thought was an interesting point of debate.  :-\
[/quote]

Yes, very interesting.  :yes:

Sorry, made a mess of the quotes on this post.  Should have read as above.

[Dree]

[quote author=piglet link=topic=12683.msg245748#msg245748 date=1224350177]
from what i learned last weekend even people who are 1st/2nd/3rd gen ‘natural pups’ on both sides will still be passing on genetic information ‘bred in’ from vaccine damage (& other factors).
[/quote]

Yes, I believe that’s true.  But I also believe that pups from 2nd/3rd generation are stronger..and the more generations that stay “clean” then the stronger they are immune-wise.  We just need more Natural breeders.  But convincing people to not vaccinate, not Frontline, feed raw, etc., etc., when they are bombarded with “science” (sorry Claire!  ;D) is sodding difficult.

[quote author=piglet link=topic=12683.msg245748#msg245748 date=1224350177]
i was really sad when i learned that there is an opinion that HIV was transferred from animals to humans through the cultivation process of live vaccines.  it made me feel shame to be of scientific mind.
[/quote]

The discussion in “Vaccination and Immunisation: Dangers, Delusions and Alternatives (What Every Parent Should Know)” by Leon Chaitow, is that SV40 contaminated vaccines were used in millions of individuals in the 1950s ad 1960s in polio vaccine, the age-group which now have AIDS.  From the book:- “SV40 is immunosuppressive.  In animals it causes large numbers of sarcomas.  SV40 decreases protein production in animals infected with it, leading to muscle wasting.  These are symptoms of AIDS.”  There’s much more, but that’s the basics.  Interesting….and frightening.

[quote author=piglet link=topic=12683.msg245748#msg245748 date=1224350177]
one of the main problems is money – the establishments who train the “experts” are funded by . . .  large commercial animal feed manufacturers and large pharmaceutical companies.  the curriculums are forced in a direction which ensures the medical model is pushed to the extreme and that no pet owner should be able to treat or feed their own dog. 
[/quote]

I find it scary that, on the whole, the population are brain-washed into believing that vaccines are necessary for health, when the facts are actually the opposite.  Vaccination was generally introduced by the government when a particular disease was on the wane anyway….but the vaccine got the praise for “removing” the danger of .  It’s amazing how easy the government can play around with the figures.  And also turn around disasters of some vaccines!

[quote author=piglet link=topic=12683.msg245748#msg245748 date=1224350177]
interestingly, the new “cure all” CBT does the complete opposite and takes peoples reliance on professionals away and gives them the power to live their own life. 
[/quote]

What is CBT?

[Anonymous]

quote :

What is CBT?

believe me your life is richer without knowing 😀

(it stands for cognitive behavioural therapy – the basic idea is “change the thoughts” and as a result “behaviour changes”)

e.g.  “i must make time to walk my dogs every day”  … results in alot of pressure and worry
but
        “i would like to walk the dogs today” … short term baby steps, frame it in positive terms etc … and you feel better about it.

its all a bit psychobabble if you ask me (the trainee psychologist haha!) what it really comes down to is boosting your self efficacy and confidence.  its been hailed the new “cure all” and is used for anything from major ops (to improve recovery time) to depression (to counteract negative thinking) yep it works – makes people think “i can do this” instead of “i need a specialist to help with my depression” OK but in many cases it needs integration not a stand alone cure 😀

🙂

oh and dont be sorry – science isnt always good … and bad science can be (to quote Hagrid) “as bad as you can go”. 

no idea who said it but as far as the drug companies and petfood industry are concerned – “money makes the world go round” … (why give a stuff about someones dog you’ll never know when you’re busy empire building)  …… western/capitalist society i guess …

[kizkiznobite]

The discussion in “Vaccination and Immunisation: Dangers, Delusions and Alternatives (What Every Parent Should Know)” by Leon Chaitow, is that SV40 contaminated vaccines were used in millions of individuals in the 1950s ad 1960s in polio vaccine, the age-group which now have AIDS.  From the book:- “SV40 is immunosuppressive.  In animals it causes large numbers of sarcomas.  SV40 decreases protein production in animals infected with it, leading to muscle wasting.  These are symptoms of AIDS.”  There’s much more, but that’s the basics.  Interesting….and frightening.

two sides to every debate….this was covered at a conference on retroviruses and opportunistic infections held by the Nat Cancer Inst in states some years ago, where the findings were that there was no support for the suggestion that SV40 impacts in lymphomagenesis and was not related to AIDs at all…i seem to remember the THT put out a statement …..

[Author]

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