Really like this quote – dominance

[*Nick*]

ok, well let’s change tacks a bit then….

what initiates leadership in a pack?  I’m not asking what maintains it, but what  act or skill or subconscious behaviour gets the job in the first place?

Does it depend on the type of pack?

a packk of physicists? a pack of hells angels? a pack of beauty queens?

[GSPmad]

i think it depends on leadership qualities. if we talking about humans – people skills, an ability to understand what people are thinking, how they work, what will give each individual person satisfaction and make them feel good about themself… problem solving, lateral thinking, quick thinking in a tight situation, intelligence…

and i would say similar for dogs in a lot of ways in terms of problem solving etc – not in terms of the emotive human stuff – i don’t think they are reckoning – fido will be really pleased if i offer him my bowl to lick out….  😀

[*Lassie*]

I don’t feel I am the Leader more a protector and guide, it feels more like a partnership even if it is an uneven one, hard to explain. I am not good with words or putting feelings down in print, yes the dogs will most of the time follow my cues but we care for each other. While Willow has been poorly I have slept on the sofa, when she needs out she whines to me and gently licks my face to wake me. When she comes back covered with shite she stands and waits at the door for me to wash her down before she comes into the house. I didn’t tell her she had to she did this herself, at 3.00 in the morning I am on autopilot  :sleepy:  
Probably not making much sense but not good at words and bloody tired

[*Nick*]

well, let’s keep this to the animal kingdom

I’m the boss because i can kick your ass!  
I’m the boss because I’m the best hunter and provider!

 Is it as simple as that?

p.s. have you ever seen an ape that has been displaced as leader?  absolutely tragic.

[GSPmad]

[quote author=*Nick* link=topic=12580.msg243153#msg243153 date=1222722986]
well, let’s keep this to the animal kingdom

I’m the boss because i can kick your ass!  
I’m the boss because I’m the best hunter and provider!

 Is it as simple as that?

p.s. have you ever seen an ape that has been displaced as leader?  absolutely tragic.
[/quote]

stop changing your mind. how many beauty queens and hells angels are there in the animal kingdom?  😀

without wishing to sound sexist – i think that’s a very male way of looking at it.  ;D i am trying to think which animals have hierarchies based on matriarchy rather than patriarchy and i can’t think which are which…. but to me it’s not just that simple – it’s about intelligence and thought not just ass-kicking ability – otherwise why would you see a toy poodle sorting a pack of great danes?  😉

[*Lassie*]

which animals have hierarchies based on matriarchy rather than patriarchy

Elephants

[wags]

horses

[*Nick*]

Yes, but Terry, I am male.  It’s the only way I can think.  I can’t think like a female and it would be arrogant and insulting for me to say that I can.

Also I’m not posing these questions with my answers at the ready, I’m genuinely looking for answers.

Anyway, excellent points about matriarchal societies

and I can change my mind as much as I want! It’s my prerogative!    that was my attempt at thinking like  a woman  ;D

[kizkiznobite]

a good pack manager ….when it comes to survival ….is a problem solver…they a diffuser…they know how to be assertive without aggression…they cannot afford to be aggressive..they cannot risk being harmed because their genes are at risk..they know how to work the odds…maintaining that maintains status…when brose fell ill she still was in mind but not able to be in body…ami then and only then kicked in the challenge..until then she was the good number 2…the old fashioned ‘beta’

in wild canine packs the boss girl breeds…the other girlies are not allowed to and bear in mind most of those other girlies are sisters, off spring from previous litters etc…if the boss girl cannot for whatever reason then she will accept the mating of one of the healthier girlies..but…..she will then take those pups and raise them and if the natural mother objects she will be excluded or killed…this is so those pups learn the pack ‘rules’ in order for the ‘pack’ to continue carrying on those genes

this is why i have this problem/attitude with dominance theory..it not about being the bolshy one or the one that can fight bestest…it about overall survival and that means pack skill..and the feeding..ok lets talk re feeding…

brose was a brill pack leader ….in this regard alone she was brill…i would put all the bones and gubbings on a tray and place on floor …. once she had sent them all to their spots…she then in her head made her allotment…easy..i could walk away and leave her to it…so where does that leave us in the i provide debate? it certainly did not diminish me being the overall pack manager…and when it came to caught food i still got asked…is this ok…you want or do i eat it or share it…

[kizkiznobite]

ok…the rules of the pack..blimey none of you lot read kipling..and i dont mean the jungle book as it is produced today  ::)

right am going to go into my normal ask a question teaching mode

what why and when…..would a canine pack leave the den

[*Nick*]

quote :

she will then take those pups and raise them and if the natural mother objects she will be excluded or killed…

do you mean the natural mother would be excluded?

quote :

it certainly did not diminish me being the overall pack manager…and when it came to caught food i still got asked…is this ok…you want or do i eat it or share it…

so you are always considered the food provider therefore leader? or is pack manager dfferent than pack leader?

[*Nick*]

quote :

what why and when…..would a canine pack leave the den

for safety , shelter or food?

[*Lassie*]

what why and when…..would a canine pack leave the den

to hunt, to mark territory, to find a new mate or pack

[GSPmad]

[quote author=*Nick* link=topic=12580.msg243164#msg243164 date=1222724060]
Yes, but Terry, I am male.  It’s the only way I can think.   I can’t think like a female and it would be arrogant and insulting for me to say that I can.
[/quote]

Yes I know you are male…. What I meant was that to me it was a specifically male way of looking at things – if you see what I mean – can’t think quite how to describe it.  :-\ Would be surprised if you thought like a woman.  ;D And it has just reminded me of my ex-step father and his argument that everyone is half male and half female but that is off topic and will make me very confused…  :surprise:

Do cats have matriarchal societies? I had a feeling they did but can’t remember… and which are dogs or are they neither? Have forgotten that too….

[GSPmad]

[quote author=kizkiznobite link=topic=12580.msg243167#msg243167 date=1222724347]
ok…the rules of the pack..blimey none of you lot read kipling..and i dont mean the jungle book as it is produced today  ::)

right am going to go into my normal ask a question teaching mode

what why and when…..would a canine pack leave the den
[/quote]

to find food, mark territory as their area for finding food and living, if it became unsafe or uninhabitable..

why kipling?  ??? have read the jungle book and the just-so stories but can’t link it.  :-\

[Author]

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