Bad relationship

[Dree]

[quote author=kizkiznobite link=topic=12456.msg241278#msg241278 date=1221744387]
at the end of the day… 🙂

extinction is what it is and involves aversion…even for the most ‘rewarding’ trainer…it takes skill and understanding to apply correctly and it’s use…. while at times useful…. i would not use in this way…personal choice…but i wont risk extinguishing a behaviour at the sake of not using another cue for a wanted behaviour…if dog has to be leashed …even from a martini down…then the recall is not a martini…or the stop isnt…or upsit or roll on back or go left go right…or into nudge or a stand off or a wait up or or…just MHO…

cues for sheepdogs…same principles apply…a word is a word is a word..you should hear some of my mothers  😀 😀
[/quote]

I disagree….you are not risking anything.  Yes, the owner doesn’t have an instant recall….but that’s the whole point of putting in another behaviour *in place of* the one that has not been proofed.  No harm in that.  Yes, a word is a word is a word.  Just as a dog is a dog is a dog.  But having worked with collies a lot (with our own and with rescues) and also with other breeds, the collie is by far the faster dog mentally, and the first thing it will pick up is the down….they are “down” dogs.  (Or, you might find they are “stand” dogs….depends on the breeding….if you own a collie, you need to play around with both of them.)

[kizkiznobite]

no it isnt…a down is a down a stop is a stop… a down then a stop is the start of a series ..it 2 behaviours…and it risky…stop means just stop just stop because i am going to tell you to do something else in 2 secs 2 mins 2 hours…a down is a down and yep i might tell you to do x in a min or y in amin but while you in that down you MAY be at risk but…if you at risk i have cued you so…as you are highly cued and wont break that cue you are exposed…and that means a risk of losing trust…sorry..we just not on the same wavelength are we…

i work with aggressive dogs…i work with my dogs in this…i have to be able to have the 100% trust that that needs…i have to be able to do a stand off…a stand off that is sustained even though i am at risk and their natural desire is to help …in returen they have to trust me that if i stand them off or send them behind after a stop then i can trust them…ok it extreme at times …i know that but…with clients…if they get these basics on cue fluent and reliable witout hesitation  then they got it made..

so…what would you do IF it was going to put a dog at risk

[Anonymous]

quote :

Remember that if he does a slow one, or is slow to react (presuming he understands the command perfectly in all circumstances) then with-hold the reward.  Or just give him a pat on the head, and say “Good try, son, but not good enough.

Dree – a stop is a stop, your down in this situation is a stop then a down its 2 behaviours (the behaviour of stopping and the behaviour of down) chained together 🙂 

I would take care witholding rewards during initial training for non fluent behaviour – i reward this and build on it.  Also I wouldnt give reward for unreliable cues (ones with are almost there are not the behaviour you want so … “what u click 4 is what u get” – my bonnie can offer a wonderful 1/2 sit crouch kinda thing in freeshaping from when i was clicking in the wrong place !).

Correct me if I am wrong but surely if you had Nells cues reliable and fluent it follows that you wouldnt need to put her on her lead (and deny her flight and increase her dog anxiety) ?  Basically it means you never got your C5+D with her for her heelwork or stayby / leaveit / waitup cues …?

Claire x

hehe — ooh bev see i do listen !!!!

[kizkiznobite]

collies haha you think cos i a gunner freak i dont know collies  ;D sorry…but you havnt read many of my posts….

yes i am risking…i am risking the instant 100% down whistle cue… if i cue a down and then put him on a leash then how long do you think it will take a high drive gunner to work out that a whistle down means leash on….how long for that extinction to kick in…..

read his thread…his time to convert a UCS to CR is amazing….aint going to risk losing what i have for the sake of extinction….come on…he my 40th ish whatever dog that i have been responible for directly…no bloody way…he a high drive gunner and CJ has a high drive BC…

done from my point of view…

[Dree]

[quote author=kizkiznobite link=topic=12456.msg241304#msg241304 date=1221751367]
no it isnt…a down is a down a stop is a stop… a down then a stop is the start of a series ..it 2 behaviours…and it risky…stop means just stop just stop because i am going to tell you to do something else in 2 secs 2 mins 2 hours…a down is a down and yep i might tell you to do x in a min or y in amin but while you in that down you MAY be at risk but…if you at risk i have cued you so…as you are highly cued and wont break that cue you are exposed…and that means a risk of losing trust…sorry..we just not on the same wavelength are we…

A stop is a stop….in order to get the dog out of danger, you will have to re-command it to do something else…..whether from a stand, a sit or a down.  A dog is as capable of moving out of a down back to you if necessary, as it is from a stand.  (No, we’re not on the same wavelength because you are insisting that a natural behaviour from a dog….the down….is two behaviours.  We could argue that a down is stop and down and therefore two behaviours, or that it’s one in that it’s a quick response to a command.  Quite honestly, I don’t give two hoots if it’s two behaviours or one…so long as it sodding works.)

i work with aggressive dogs…i work with my dogs in this…i have to be able to have the 100% trust that that needs…i have to be able to do a stand off…a stand off that is sustained even though i am at risk and their natural desire is to help …in returen they have to trust me that if i stand them off or send them behind after a stop then i can trust them…ok it extreme at times …i know that but…with clients…if they get these basics on cue fluent and reliable witout hesitation  then they got it made..

so…what would you do IF it was going to put a dog at risk
[/quote]

A stop is a stop….in order to get the dog out of danger, you will have to re-command it to do something else…..whether from a stand, a sit or a down.  A dog is as capable of moving out of a down back to you if necessary, as it is from a stand.  (No, we’re not on the same wavelength because you are insisting that a natural behaviour from a dog….the down….is two behaviours.  We could argue that a down is stop and down and therefore two behaviours, or that it’s one in that it’s a quick response to a command.  Quite honestly, I don’t give two hoots if it’s two behaviours or one…so long as it sodding works.)

I also work with aggressive dogs.  Dogs that are flying out at other dogs.  As I said, I don’t care if that dog stands or downs, so long as I get it to stop flying out.  My own dogs are not aggressive, but I go out to dogs that are.  And, like you, I teach clients to get the dog behind them.  It’s not rocket science. 

As I said before, I wouldn’t do a down if it put the dog at risk.  I think we are moving away from the original problem, which was CJ’s dog *leaving her side* to approach other dogs, which was where the down came into play.  CJ’s dog (from my understanding of her post) was not near other dogs, and I simply explained how I stopped my dog from flying out to other dogs that were a distance away.  The down did not involve dogs that were up close and personal.  😉

[Mudgie]

I have lost this

So a stop is a stop, a down is a down, a wait is a wait, a sit is a sit………….

And no matter what you are doing – you have to test it – preferably with pink ribbons.

[wags]

uh i like pink ribbon  :yes:

[Anonymous]

Hi,

back to CJ ………

You know what sweetie, I really think the best thing to do is for someone to come out and see you.  Whether Bev can make it up there or its one of the other guys with a good understanding of her training and they take a video camera – I really really think this would help.  I know you want someone local to be there all the time but I just get a sense that you’re listening and its all going in but theres something you’re maybe not quite understanding or missing thats just messing things up for you.  I really admire you for keeping with this – stay strong x x x x

Claire x

[Mudgie]

I like it when you are nice Claire  🙂  Click………. treat
:gum:

[kizkiznobite]

A dog is as capable of moving out of a down back to you if necessary, as it is from a stand.

no….my dogs are highly cued…my dogs would not..they have martini cues…so if cued to a down then in a down they would stay…but i dont go that far…i would not expose them to that risk….

As I said, I don’t care if that dog stands or downs, so long as I get it to stop flying out.  

i do…i do care…i care that dog follows a cue.. and that cue is given having assessed risk to my dog clients dog me and whoever….hence the need to care because if there is a weakness with a partiuclar cue and i choose the wrong cue at the wrong time then…..

your post was generic,,,this forum is read by many…CJ knows where her and dog is at…in MHO CJ does not need to try extinction…if CJ’s dog is leaving her side then other cues are needed not a down and then leashing….in MHO having had various conversations on and off board….extinction is an aversive…i note you havnt replied to that post in the thread…it take experience…as you and i have…it is not for the novice…and dont even try to tell me otherwise…if you are working with aggressive dogs then you are working with dogs that have got there through extinction…..

and you havnt replied re my response re UCR and US re risk and my pup…..heyho…

[Anonymous]

i sprayed my tea at the monitor !!!!  😀

[Mudgie]

I am so going to print this off – I will need this for college I so know I will  :agree:  Is that okay moddies  :ok:

[.dodger.]

[quote author=kizkiznobite link=topic=12456.msg241057#msg241057 date=1221665615]
ahhh…right ..when you say ‘this dog’ you mean dodger not as in your last post ie this dog meaning your dog…ok …think i understand…

laura and i been chatting since he arrived…on board and off… lots of posts re dodger boy….

happy to put up the training records etc …assuming laura agree’s
[/quote]
had about 3 pages of posts to get through but yeah feel free to put up the training records. It seems there a a few owners (past and present) who are having problems with the same things – hopefully my training records will help them and their dogs :yes: 🙂

[kizkiznobite]

a behaviour has to be proofed before you can say dog is trained in that behaviour mudgie…and yep if it takes pink ribbons  😉 it takes pink ribbons…. if it takes 9 months …oh lord amilou bless you love you but you sent me grey  :-* :-*…it takes nine months….if it takes an extinction it takes an extinction…but….how many of you know exactly what an extinction is and more imprtantly how to apply it as a training method….use the ‘boxes’ use the R+ etc etc…use extinction with care is my advice…am done with this….

[Diesel73]

[quote author=Mark. link=topic=12456.msg241269#msg241269 date=1221736596]
This thread is surreal.  :surprise:
[/quote]
Except for the last page….Typical women communication….. Men can understand e-ve-ry word they are saying, but we can’t figure out whàt they are talking about. Confusing yes  :yes: .

[Author]

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